Home › Forums › Science & History › Orvonton and the Milky Way
George — thanks for reviewing that paper. Regarding collaborations, do you know of any UB readers who mighty be keeping up with the so-called standard model of particle physics? To move beyond prevailing assumptions (conceptual bondage?) of Einstein’s “faint glimpse”, I expect we’ll need to incorporate the foundations of matter, not just its apparent astronomic distribution.
Getting back to business, regarding the distinction between “pre-organized” potential force (absoluta) and “post-organized” primordial force (segregata), this paragraph seems to be the key:
(469.8, 42:2.8) Passive and potential force becomes active and primordial in response to the resistance afforded by the space presence of the Primary Eventuated Master Force Organizers.
If we think of the “supergravity presence which constitutes the force-charge of pervaded space” (12:8.2) as the “passive and potential force” which can be activated by a paradisiacal presence, then the job of a (Primary Eventuated Master) Paradise Force Organizer is to realize / actualize this potential — as a cyclone of segregata.
Problem is, that’s all a bit abstract. Does the UB give any concrete examples of how this plays out in the real world? Does it offer any examples of this unsuspected (undiscoverable?) evolution of mass and matter, from pre-organized absoluta to highly-organized gravita (via segregata and ultimata)?
Yes it does! In fact it was the following extraordinary example that compelled me to rethink my consensus assumptions about spiral galaxies, and about Orvonton’s major sectors:
(652.5, 57:2.2) “800,000,000,000 years ago the Andronover creation was well established as one of the magnificent primary nebulae of Orvonton. As the astronomers of near-by universes looked out upon this phenomenon of space, they saw very little to attract their attention. Gravity estimates made in adjacent creations indicated that space materializations were taking place in the Andronover regions, but that was all.”
“Gravity estimates indicated…, but that was all.” (652.5, 57:2.2)
As I read that paragraph, by 800 billion years ago, [explorer/inspector/organizer] 811,307 (see 651.5-6, 57:1.3-4) had evolved a region of activated and primordial segregata into something that had measureable gravitational effect. However, as of 800 billion years ago, this ancestral precursor of Nebadon still had no stars: “Gravity estimates indicated…, but that was all.” (652.5, 57:2.2)
Now here’s the surprising bit: even at this stage, this invisible yet gravitating mass is described as “well established“, and as “one of the magnificent primary nebulae of Orvonton“.
A well established and magnificent nebula, whose only measureable property was mass-in-motion.
Pause to consider. Recall that “Inspector 811,307” is actually an associate force organizer (651.5, 57:1.3). As we know, these guys are famous for turning segregata into ultimata; and only after segregata has been condensed as ultimata and quantized as discrete ultimatons can gravity act, allowing Paradise to get a grip on these “emerging energies” (see 470.1, 42:2.10). So the fact that observers in neighboring (local) universes were detecting gravitational action, but as yet no light, implies that 800 billion years ago, only pre-electronic (i.e. ultimatonic) mass had evolved within that “well established” and “magnificent primary nebula“.
Assuming all this (absolute) ultimatonic mass was locked into elliptical motion about the paradisiacal presence of the (Paradise) Force Organizer (serving as “nucleus” for his ultimatonic disk), there’s an awful lot of angular momentum in this (absolutely) massive system. But since we’re still in the pre-electronic stage, there’s no electric charge, hence… no electromagnetic photons. This is why I argue that this massive system, rich in angular momentum, must be dark.
But as the UB story reveals, eventually those ultimatons begin (unexplained) to huddle. Later, under the direction of Power Directors and the control of Physical Controllers, they can be arranged to perform as “electronic matter” (leptons and quarks),
(328.2, 29:4.33) “[…], handling and manipulating atoms, electrons, and ultimatons much as you maneuver adjustable type to make the same alphabetical symbols tell vastly different stories.”
As I see it, the simplest way to build a standard model from these ultimatonic foundations is to allow these ultimatons naturally to “huddle” themselves (478.4, 42:7.10) into primitive di-polar and tri-polar association. From there, all we need is for these primitive dipoles and tripoles to behave like water molecules: given the right conditions, think how water molecules naturally lock themselves into the rigid and stable structures of ice, and how such ice gets carried along by the motion of the water in which it floats.
To get a handle on this concept, think of superuniverse gravita (leptons and quarks) as ultimatonic ice floating in elliptical pools of superuniverse ultimata. Such gravita (and its accumulation as stars and galaxies) would naturally be dragged along by the “mass-movemented (470.2, 42:2.11)” motions within those superuniverse pools.
And now think of the angular momentum locked into such frame-dragging space drifts of ultimata, held in elliptical motion about transcendental anchors of paradise presence. Suddenly we have a very neat explanation for what Fritz Zwicky and Vera Rubin noticed all those decades ago: that the motions within and between spiral galaxies are determined not by the visible electron/baryon content, but by some unseen mass in orbital motion.
In UB terms, a rotating (frame-dragging?) disk of ultimata.
To put this in a larger, cosmological context, we should distinguish between “grand universe” and “master universe” activation. Consider the similarity between what a Paradise Force Organizer can do, and what nether Paradise does:
(169.1, 15:4.1) “[…] But there is something of mystery associated with the universal force-charge of space; […] Though nonresponsive to Paradise gravity, this force-charge of space, the ancestor of all materialization, does always respond to the presence of nether Paradise, […]”
(469.7, 42:2.7) “2. Primordial force. This represents the first basic change in space potency and may be one of the nether Paradise functions of the Unqualified Absolute. […]. But regardless of any such possible relationships, the openly recognized transmutation of space potency into primordial force is the primary differentiating function of the tension-presence of the living Paradise force organizers.”
Notice that either the transcendental presence of nether paradise, or the “tension-presence” of a Paradise Force Organizer, is sufficient to transmute space potency into activated and primordial force. PS: this is why I like to call nether paradise “the mother of all force organizers”
It was these two distinct types of paradisiacal action on space potency that provoked another rethink: that the so-called “grand universe age” is playing out in a pool of superuniverse segregata, “force-organized” by nether Paradise itself; whereas the spirals of outer space are spun up by individual Force Organizers, in anticipation of a so-called “master universe age“.
Which brings us face to face with the problem of untangling what Orvonton really is. If the gravitational center which defines and controls the entire master universe really does lie just on the far side of Uversa, then the far side of Uversa may hold some astronomical surprises. What we need is something like a Webb Space Telescope…
Talk about great timing
Over at the UBRON forum, Allen Graycek has written much on the Milky Way, and his “Great Age” version of UB cosmology. In a current discussion, in a reply to my post, he wrote:
[AG] “I think this is why I differ on the appearance of the Grand Universe as Nigel sees it. The central universe is architectural, planned and built to rigid design. Outside of Havona in an evolutionary plan, there are no architectural or designed systems except headquarters worlds. This means that the orbits of the seven superuniverses are not in the same plane with identical orbital paths relative to Havona.”
(Since my reply applies to our current thread here, I’ll include it here too…)
Thanks Allen — the only reason I speculate on (such unlikely!) co-planar thin disks is this: given 1,000 billion years, the action of paradise gravity on the angular momentum of “Grand Universe” segregata must have done something similar to what Saturn has done to her rings: literally forced the orbiting ultimata and gravita (derived from that grand universe cyclone of segregata) into a common orbital plane (i.e. classical physics).
Notice that this implies a “Great Age” (or grand universe age) of superuniverse activation, a vast span of time during which the superuniverses are organized and civilized. It’s this truly Great Age (of the grand universe), that I’d like to distinguish from whatever is happening in the outer space levels.
As far as I can tell, all other UB cosmologists seem happy to ignore the grand universe (and those relatively nearby dark gravity belts), and assume some homogenous activation of the whole master universe plot. This may explain their assumption that the 7 ancient superuniverses must appear just as random and chaotic as the (possibly far younger) distribution of spirals in outer space.
(Regarding the sketch I refer to, I’ve added it below)
PS: in my sketch in msg 197079, what do you think my arrangement of the Milky Way and M31? I have Andromeda “traveling along with us“, and clearly local to the Orvonton extrusion leading spoke-like towards Paradise. For reference, that outer dotted ellipse (inner fringe of the first outer space level?) indicates McCall’s Council of Giants, and everything is drawn to scale. Notice how neatly that distance of “200,000 light years to Uversa” fits into this scheme.
* * *
Another part of my speculation is that the original cyclone of grand universe segregata was force-organized not by mere master force organizers, but by the mother of all force organizers, nether paradise itself. This cyclone of segregata becomes the “primordial force-charge” pervading the superuniverse space level, and may actually define this innermost level of finite activation. Of course Orvonton and the other superuniverses must be embedded within this original cyclone of space, so right from the start, these superuniverses appear to be part of an “architectural, planned and built-to-design system“, and… sharing a common orbital plane.
To help get a feel for this unexpected scheme, take another look at this simulation from (link) the Spitzer infra-red data. From outside the Milky Way, the infrared signature of our home spiral is astonishingly thin (see from the 56 second mark in that video).
So here’s my question to fellow UB astro-geeks: if the Milky Way spiral is one of ten major sectors in Orvonton, and if our two nearest neighboring major sectors lie centered through +/- 35 degrees longitude either side of Sgr A*, at a distance of about 180,000 light years, and have almost identical infrared profiles as the Milky Way, will it be possible for even the James Webb Space Telescope to untangle the necessary Cepheid data to identify such co-planar neighbors?
One person who is passionate about proving this possibility is Sukanya Chakrabarti. She’s team leader of a group who in 2015 claimed to have spotted 3 Cepheids at 300,000 light years behind the MW disk (but more than a full degree below the galactic plane, putting the suspect Cepheids well below the proposed plane of our neighboring major sector spirals). Another group debated these findings, arguing that the target stars were not even Cepheids! This goes to show how hard it will be for astronomers to identify and examine proposed Cepheids along the plane of the Milky Way, which highlights how hard it will be to prove (or disprove) the existence of the truly co-planar spirals which (I propose) the UB implies.
In the meantime, what we need is for at least one other reader to notice what the revelators reveal about segregata, also known as “pure energy” or “primordial force”:
“Passive and potential force becomes active and primordial in response to…” (469.8-9, 42:2.8-9)
“Primordial force is sometimes spoken of as pure energy; on Uversa we refer to it as SEGREGATA.”
“This state is analogous to the concept of the primordial force-charge of space, sometimes called pure energy or segregata.” (126.1, 11:8.5)
sorry for making this so long!
PS: here’s the picture referred to above,
You still have not provided any empirical evidence to support your theory that the other major sectors in Orvonton and the other six superuniverses in the grand universe are all hidden behind the plane of the Milky Way, “centered through +/- 35 degrees longitude either side of Sgr A*.” If your theory was correct, then there should be evidence of the plane of the first outer space level on the same plane as the Milky Way, but in the opposite direction from Sgr A*. The fact is there is no evidence of this. The complete lack of substantiating evidence for your theory prevents it from being more than pure speculation.
You have attempted to get around this problem in the past by supposing the Council of Giants (yellow galaxies in the above picture) show the plane of the first outer space level. However, this ring of galaxies is tilted almost perpendicular to the plane of the Milky Way. The Book unambiguously says that all space levels are on the same plane – the plane of creation. If you are orienting the first outer space level perpendicular to the superuniverse space level, then you are no longer talking about the structure of the universe revealed in the Book. If you reject the plane of creation, you reject what the Book has to say about the highest level of universe organization.
You cannot point to the revealed idea of space levels because it supports your theory and then reject the revealed idea of the plane of creation, because it does not support your theory. You can pick and choose only the major ideas you like in the Book, but the cosmology you wind up pursuing is something of your own creation. It is not the cosmology of Light and Life presented in epochal revelation, in which the material plane of creation is in universal revolution about the eternal Isle of Paradise at the absolute center of the universe.
George — thanks for trying to keep me on the straight and narrow!
Regarding relationships in space, I got disorientated by what Jesus said (paper 130 section 7) about time and space. He finished with this statement:
“It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.” (1439.5, 130:7.7)
After reading that section, I lost faith in my once comfortable concept, that space is simply a great big three dimensional room. What about you? What do you think Jesus meant (as paraphrased by the authors) that the universe is “seven-dimensional”?
Regarding reservoir (unpervaded) space, do you conceive of this as some excavation of the same 3-space in which pervaded (horizontal) space exists? Or should we think of the pervaded and non-pervaded zones as distinct sub-manifolds, both embedded in that relative geographic extension of paradise (midspace) which the authors call “quiescent” (124.3-4, 11:7.2-3)?
If you can help to clarify this fundamental context for UB cosmology, I’ll have another go at sketching out my ideas about how a trillion year old (organized and inhabited) superuniverse may have evolved. And how a “plane of creation” might appear in a truly absolutely ultimate bestowal of Paradise (i.e. “space”).
Thanks for being patient,
If Jesus’ short and mysterious statement about achieving “identity in a seven-dimensional universe” has led you to doubt the universe exists in three-dimensional space, what sort of space-time manifold do you think contains the material universe? If your hypothesis is correct, the galaxies in the universe are not preferentially distributed relative to a simple two-dimensional plane in three-dimensional space. How would you expect a two-dimensional planar concentration of galaxies to appear to us, if the universe exists in seven-dimensional space, as you suppose? If your theory does not provide this expectation, then it is not a scientific one which can be falsified by the evidence; it is a metaphysical one which cannot be either proven or disproven by material facts and observations.
On the other hand, there is now indisputable empirical evidence of a concentration of galaxies forming a planar structure which extends from tens of millions out to tens of billions of light-years. Going forward, every scientific cosmology must account for the verified existence of this plane of creation. Those that do not are falsified by this very fact. So far, only the cosmology of Light and Life revealed in The Urantia Book predicts and explains the existence of this two-dimensional planar structure.
It’s curious that you should characterize this fundamental requirement of the scientific attitude and method with the moralistic phrase “straight and narrow.” There are plenty of metaphysical theories and theologies which contain moral and spiritual truth, even if they fail the rigorous empirical tests of scientific truth.
(1439.4) 130:7.6 There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. The confusion of the scientist grows out of failure to recognize the reality of space. Space is not merely an intellectual concept of the variation in relatedness of universe objects. Space is not empty, and the only thing man knows which can even partially transcend space is mind. Mind can function independently of the concept of the space-relatedness of material objects. Space is relatively and comparatively finite to all beings of creature status. The nearer consciousness approaches the awareness of seven cosmic dimensions, the more does the concept of potential space approach ultimacy. But the spacepotential is truly ultimate only on the absolute level.
(1439.5) 130:7.7 It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.
(1439.6) 130:7.8 The time-space concept of a mind of material origin is destined to undergo successive enlargements as the conscious and conceiving personality ascends the levels of the universes. When man attains the mind intervening between the material and the spiritual planes of existence, his ideas of timespace will be enormously expanded both as to quality of perception and quantity of experience. The enlarging cosmic conceptions of an advancing spirit personality are due to augmentations of both depth of insight and scope of consciousness. And as personality passes on, upward and inward, to the transcendental levels of Deity-likeness, the time-space concept will increasingly approximate the timeless and spaceless concepts of the Absolutes. Relatively, and in accordance with transcendental attainment, these concepts of the absolute level are to be envisioned by the children of ultimate destiny.
If one thinks of a dimension as a single or one dimensional reflective area projecting itself upon another single or one dimensional area and we assume that they are positioned in a cube like shape or position, then that which is in the middle would be a seventh dimension which would reflect an image based on various points of intersecting angles dependent on position. In other words, how a holographic image may be projected which has three dimensional form. However, time has substance where our understanding is relative to motion but heat-less light (light without heat) contains frequencies which can be focused on a single point from six directions which then when combined creates substance in various vibrational patterns. The UB mentions superuniverses in general but only seems to mention specifically the seventh superuniverse other than in this one section below, where it associates them to Master Spirits and also mentions the superuniverses as first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth, and one, two, three, four, five, six, etc. So, if we assume that the seven dimensions are time (not as we understand time) and three physical dimensions of space we get a decimal dimension where as we know our planet is a decimal planet. If one makes this assumption to be how creation is formed or reflected upon us, we might have a better understanding of how a matrix of dimensions is a creational force.
3. Identity and Diversity of the Master Spirits
(186.5) 16:3.1 The Seven Master Spirits are indescribable beings, but they are distinctly and definitely personal. They have names, but we elect to introduce them by number. As primary personalizations of the Infinite Spirit, they are akin, but as primary expressions of the seven possible associations of triune Deity, they are essentially diverse in nature, and this diversity of nature determines their differential of superuniverse conduct. These Seven Master Spirits may be described as follows:
(186.6) 16:3.2 Master Spirit Number One. In a special manner this Spirit is the direct representation of the Paradise Father. He is a peculiar and efficient manifestation of the power, love, and wisdom of the Universal Father. He is the close associate and supernal adviser of the chief of Mystery Monitors, that being who presides over the College of Personalized Adjusters on Divinington. In all associations of the Seven Master Spirits, it is always Master Spirit Number One who speaks for the Universal Father.
(186.7) 16:3.3 This Spirit presides over the first superuniverse and, while unfailingly exhibiting the divine nature of a primary personalization of the Infinite Spirit, seems more especially to resemble the Universal Father in character. He is always in personal liaison with the seven Reflective Spirits at the headquarters of the first superuniverse.
(187.1) 16:3.4 Master Spirit Number Two. This Spirit adequately portrays the matchless nature and charming character of the Eternal Son, the first-born of all creation. He is always in close association with all orders of the Sons of God whenever they may happen to be in the residential universe as individuals or in joyous conclave. In all the assemblies of the Seven Master Spirits he always speaks for, and in behalf of, the Eternal Son.
(187.2) 16:3.5 This Spirit directs the destinies of superuniverse number two and rules this vast domain much as would the Eternal Son. He is always in liaison with the seven Reflective Spirits situated at the capital of the second superuniverse.
(187.3) 16:3.6 Master Spirit Number Three. This Spirit personality especially resembles the Infinite Spirit, and he directs the movements and work of many of the high personalities of the Infinite Spirit. He presides over their assemblies and is closely associated with all personalities who take exclusive origin in the Third Source and Center. When the Seven Master Spirits are in council, it is Master Spirit Number Three who always speaks for the Infinite Spirit.
(187.4) 16:3.7 This Spirit is in charge of superuniverse number three, and he administers the affairs of this segment much as would the Infinite Spirit. He is always in liaison with the Reflective Spirits at the headquarters of the third superuniverse.
(187.5) 16:3.8 Master Spirit Number Four. Partaking of the combined natures of the Father and the Son, this Master Spirit is the determining influence regarding Father-Son policies and procedures in the councils of the Seven Master Spirits. This Spirit is the chief director and adviser of those ascendant beings who have attained the Infinite Spirit and thus have become candidates for seeing the Son and the Father. He fosters that enormous group of personalities taking origin in the Father and the Son. When it becomes necessary to represent the Father and the Son in the association of the Seven Master Spirits, it is always Master Spirit Number Four who speaks.
(187.6) 16:3.9 This Spirit fosters the fourth segment of the grand universe in accordance with his peculiar association of the attributes of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son. He is always in personal liaison with the Reflective Spirits of the headquarters of the fourth superuniverse.
(187.7) 16:3.10 Master Spirit Number Five. This divine personality who exquisitely blends the character of the Universal Father and the Infinite Spirit is the adviser of that enormous group of beings known as the power directors, power centers, and physical controllers. This Spirit also fosters all personalities taking origin in the Father and the Conjoint Actor. In the councils of the Seven Master Spirits, when the Father-Spirit attitude is in question, it is always Master Spirit Number Five who speaks.
(187.8) 16:3.11 This Spirit directs the welfare of the fifth superuniverse in such a way as to suggest the combined action of the Universal Father and the Infinite Spirit. He is always in liaison with the Reflective Spirits at the headquarters of the fifth superuniverse.
(187.9) 16:3.12 Master Spirit Number Six. This divine being seems to portray the combined character of the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit. Whenever the creatures jointly created by the Son and the Spirit forgather in the central universe, it is this Master Spirit who is their adviser; and whenever, in the councils of the Seven Master Spirits, it becomes necessary to speak conjointly for the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, it is Master Spirit Number Six who responds.
(188.1) 16:3.13 This Spirit directs the affairs of the sixth superuniverse much as would the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit. He is always in liaison with the Reflective Spirits at the headquarters of the sixth superuniverse.
(188.2) 16:3.14 Master Spirit Number Seven. The presiding Spirit of the seventh superuniverse is a uniquely equal portrayal of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit. The Seventh Spirit, the fostering adviser of all triune-origin beings, is also the adviser and director of all the ascending pilgrims of Havona, those lowly beings who have attained the courts of glory through the combined ministry of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
(188.3) 16:3.15 The Seventh Master Spirit is not organically representative of the Paradise Trinity; but it is a known fact that his personal and spiritual nature is the Conjoint Actor’s portraiture in equal proportions of the three infinite persons whose Deity union is the Paradise Trinity, and whose function as such is the source of the personal and spiritual nature of God the Supreme. Hence the Seventh Master Spirit discloses a personal and organic relationship to the spirit person of the evolving Supreme. Therefore in the Master Spirit councils on high, when it becomes necessary to cast the ballot for the combined personal attitude of the Father, Son, and Spirit or to depict the spiritual attitude of the Supreme Being, it is Master Spirit Number Seven who functions. He thus inherently becomes the presiding head of the Paradise council of the Seven Master Spirits.
(188.4) 16:3.16 No one of the Seven Spirits is organically representative of the Paradise Trinity, but when they unite as sevenfold Deity, this union in a deity sense — not in a personal sense — equivalates to a functional level associable with Trinity functions. In this sense the “Sevenfold Spirit” is functionally associable with the Paradise Trinity. It is also in this sense that Master Spirit Number Seven sometimes speaks in confirmation of Trinity attitudes or, rather, acts as spokesman for the attitude of the Sevenfold-Spirit-union regarding the attitude of the Threefold-Deity-union, the attitude of the Paradise Trinity.
(188.5) 16:3.17 The multiple functions of the Seventh Master Spirit thus range from a combined portraiture of the personal natures of the Father, Son, and Spirit, through a representation of the personal attitude of God the Supreme, to a disclosure of the deity attitude of the Paradise Trinity. And in certain respects this presiding Spirit is similarly expressive of the attitudes of the Ultimate and of the Supreme-Ultimate.
(188.6) 16:3.18 It is Master Spirit Number Seven who, in his multiple capacities, personally sponsors the progress of the ascension candidates from the worlds of time in their attempts to achieve comprehension of the undivided Deity of Supremacy. Such comprehension involves a grasp of the existential sovereignty of the Trinity of Supremacy so co-ordinated with a concept of the growing experiential sovereignty of the Supreme Being as to constitute the creature grasp of the unity of Supremacy. Creature realization of these three factors equals Havona comprehension of Trinity reality and endows the pilgrims of time with the ability eventually to penetrate the Trinity, to discover the three infinite persons of Deity.
(188.7) 16:3.19 The inability of the Havona pilgrims fully to find God the Supreme is compensated by the Seventh Master Spirit, whose triune nature in such a peculiar manner is revelatory of the spirit person of the Supreme. During the present universe age of the noncontactability of the person of the Supreme, Master Spirit Number Seven functions in the place of the God of ascendant creatures in the matter of personal relationships. He is the one high spirit being that all ascenders are certain to recognize and somewhat comprehend when they reach the centers of glory.
(189.1) 16:3.20 This Master Spirit is always in liaison with the Reflective Spirits of Uversa, the headquarters of the seventh superuniverse, our own segment of creation. His administration of Orvonton discloses the marvelous symmetry of the co-ordinate blending of the divine natures of Father, Son, and Spirit.
[GP] If Jesus’ short and mysterious statement about achieving “identity in a seven-dimensional universe” has led you to doubt the universe exists in three-dimensional space, what sort of space-time manifold do you think contains the material universe?
A seven-dimensional (absolutely ultimate) manifold, within which our 3d manifold moves. Part of the idea is that this motion of our 3-space (relative to its embedding space) imposes that (famously mysterious) arrow of time. Such a scheme puts the first part of his “mysterious statement” in a new light: “Space is measured by time,” (1439.4, 130:7.6). Is what we call time actually a measure of our motion relative to more absolutely ultimate realities? Notice how this notion would amplify the implications of their statement in paper 195 about relativity being a “faint glimpse”.
“[…] And let not your dabblings with the faintly glimpsed findings of “relativity” disturb your concepts of the eternity and infinity… (2078.8, 195:7.5)
Was Einstein’s hypothesis in some sense a glimpse (admittedly faint) of certain spacelike and timelike relativities relating finite and absonite realities?
[GP] If your hypothesis is correct, the galaxies in the universe are not preferentially distributed relative to a simple two-dimensional plane in three-dimensional space. How would you expect a two-dimensional planar concentration of galaxies to appear to us, if the universe exists in seven-dimensional space, as you suppose?
I have in mind the “plane of creation” being a 3-plane, not a 2-plane. Thus our 3-dimensional finite becomes “a membrane of creation”.
[GP] If your theory does not provide this expectation, then it is not a scientific one which can be falsified by the evidence; it is a metaphysical one which cannot be either proven or disproven by material facts and observations.
As I’m sure you’ve noticed, this is where science itself is now stuck: cosmologists seriously discuss finely-tuned permutations of an unprovable multiverse, and a generation of physicists got tangled up with seriously unprovable N-dimensional strings. Anything which is easy to measure has been measured. The hard things, like Planck-scale interactions, or the global shape of space, remain unobtainium. So my motivation is simply that my evolving unprovable may prove to be a better (predictive) model in which to place the measureable universe.
[GP] On the other hand, there is now indisputable empirical evidence of a concentration of galaxies forming a planar structure which extends from tens of millions out to tens of billions of light-years. Going forward, every scientific cosmology must account for the verified existence of this plane of creation. Those that do not are falsified by this very fact. So far, only the cosmology of Light and Life revealed in The Urantia Book predicts and explains the existence of this two-dimensional planar structure.
George, can you clarify this “indisputable empirical evidence“? Has anyone else “verified (the) existence of this plane of creation“? As I understand it, the better the data, the more isotropic (though not necessarily homogenous) the universe appears to be. That is to say, from our location in space, we see the same sort of distribution projected at whatever latitude or longitude we choose to observe. Regarding your excellent work with the astronomic databases, recall that for distances beyond a few hundred million light years, those database data are not actual distances, but measures of redshift of spectral lines. Part of my scheme is that the interaction of particle-like photons with (active and primordial) segregata causes photons to appear wavelike. My guess is that this change-of-state must have some effect on apparent wavelength.
[GP] It’s curious that you should characterize this fundamental requirement of the scientific attitude and method with the moralistic phrase “straight and narrow.” There are plenty of metaphysical theories and theologies which contain moral and spiritual truth, even if they fail the rigorous empirical tests of scientific truth.
Yea indeed! And I’m happy to accept that my unashamedly absonite speculations currently lie beyond any rigorous empirical test. Much like multiverses and string theories?
At this point I should remind you that my main interest is not to defend a global cosmology, but to point out some seriously interesting statements in the UB about how matter and energy work within our spacetime. In particular, about how (passive and potential) space potency is evolved into bosons, leptons and quarks, via segregata and ultimata.
* * *
PS: regarding my evolving speculations, here are links to the current state. Part A (1 of 4) serves as introduction to UB cosmology, and breaks the ice regarding the segregation of pure energy. Part B (2 of 4) introduces an ultimatonic foundation for mass and matter. Part C (upcoming) will show how the perturbation of segregata (not the warping of space) may be a better model for explaining gravitational lensing and clock anomalies. And in Part D, I’ll discuss what a trillion years spent orbiting Paradise may have done to our major sector of Orvonton. And what the James Webb Space Telescope may help to reveal.
PS: regarding actual global cosmology:
(637.3, 56:1.1) […]. And Paradise is the actual source of all material universes — past, present, and future. But this cosmic derivation is an eternity event; at no time — past, present, or future — does either space or the material cosmos come forth from the nuclear Isle of Light. As the cosmic source, Paradise functions prior to space and before time; hence would its derivations seem to be orphaned in time and space did they not emerge through the Unqualified Absolute, their ultimate repository in space and their revealer and regulator in time.
Is this saying that some finalized state of the master universe is somehow projected eternitywise from Paradise, and that this transcendental state somehow leaks into measureable/actualized space, having been held in the great Unqualified Reserve? Is this what they mean by transcendental causation? If so, what does this imply about the action of the primary Paradise Master Force organizers? When they “exit at right angles” from their cyclones of segregata, do they leave behind an absonite intrusion through which the transcendental Paradise projection can actualize out of the Unqualified repository?
George, please continue to criticize and advise!
with thanks – Nigel
George, can you clarify this “indisputable empirical evidence“?
I have already provided this objective empirical evidence for the plane of creation to you and to others on numerous occasions, most recently at the 2016 Scientific Symposium. I won’t bore you by repeating myself. To date no one has disputed any of this evidence. Those who have not bothered to validate it by querying NASA’s Extragalactic Database for themselves may disbelieve it, but disbelief in no way proves this evidence does not exist.
I will be happy to reconsider your highly speculative theoretical model further, if you can first either explain this evidence in the context of your model or prove that this evidence does not exist. Until then, I’m not sure what more there is to discuss.
BonitaParticipantNigel Nunn wrote: Is this what they mean by transcendental causation?
I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about Nigel, but I’ve always thought that transcendental can be thought of as pre- something, like the pre-mind, pre-will or pre-personality of the Adjuster. Segregata is pre-energy, right?
Doesn’t causation, transcendental or otherwise, require will or volition, at least a first cause? Isn’t volition a sole property of personality and first cause a property of Deity personality? I would think that any description of the master universe must include both personal and nonpersonal reality, but causation is originally personal, right?
Also, I can’t picture pre-will or pre-personality “leaking”. Either God wills it, or he doesn’t. Can there be causation on any level without volition? If transcendental causation occurs due to the reaction of primordial force (pre-energy, segregata) in proportion to its absoluteness, what is its absoluteness? I would think that it has something to do with its ability to respond to primal motions initiated by the First Source and Center (absolute volition) and carried out by the God of Action, the Third Source and Center.
42:2.8 Passive and potential force becomes active and primordial in response to the resistance afforded by the space presence of the Primary Eventuated Master Force Organizers. Force is now emerging from the exclusive domain of the Unqualified Absolute into the realms of multiple response — response to certain primal motions initiated by the God of Action and thereupon to certain compensating motions emanating from the Universal Absolute. Primordial force is seemingly reactive to transcendental causation in proportion to absoluteness.Nigel Nunn wrote: do they leave behind an absonite intrusionAgain, I’m way out of my league here. I have no idea what you’re talking about. There’s nothing absonite about the members of the Trinity. Right? What’s an absonite intrusion? How are you defining absonite? What’s the difference between finite, absonite and absolute? Can the finite become absonite if absonite has no beginning? Can the absonite somehow become absolute? If segregata reacts in proportion to absoluteness, what does absonite-ness have to do with it? I’m confused.
Bonita – thanks for adding your thoughts! By “leaking in from eternity” (or projected eternitywise from Paradise), I had in mind the way the Master Architects actualize (via the Unqualified) a post-ultimate state of the master universe, that serves as Square 1 (or base of operations) for the “absolute adventure” implied by the following paragraph (and nicely defined in (link) Sadler’s study):
(1170.1 106:7.8)“At the inconceivably distant future eternity moment of the final completion of the entire master universe, no doubt we will all look back upon its entire history as only the beginning, simply the creation of certain finite and transcendental foundations for even greater and more enthralling metamorphoses in uncharted infinity. At such a future eternity moment the master universe will still seem youthful; indeed, it will be always young in the face of the limitless possibilities of never-ending eternity.”
PS: Here’s a local link to the Sadler study. He does a good job of digesting and integrating the deeply unfamiliar Urantia Book concepts about material reality, and transcendental causation. The smaller book is an easy read, the larger book (the Appendices) supplies all the supporting quotes and conceptual elaboration. For this stuff to be interesting, one would need to engage the mathematical form of the cosmic discrimination.
Thanks Nigel. Will read with my causation reality response.
I’m new to this forum but have been a reader of their urantia book since 2002. this topic is so fascinating! I’d like to add some speculation of my my own. Could a neutron star be a kind of unclassied power center? Could a pulsar be a kind of supreme power center? And could a quasar be assistant master force organizer?
Hello rhermen. Welcome to the forum.
You ask: ” I’d like to add some speculation of my my own. Could a neutron star be a kind of unclassied power center? Could a pulsar be a kind of supreme power center? And could a quasar be assistant master force organizer?”
I hope Nigel helps with answering your interesting questions. I looked up power centers, and found this reference right off the bat:9:3.6 [Part I]The universe of universes is permeated by the power-control creatures of the Third Source and Center: physical controllers, power directors, power centers, and other representatives of the God of Action who have to do with the regulation and stabilization of physical energies. These unique creatures of physical function all possess varying attributes of power control, such as antigravity, which they utilize in their efforts to establish the physical equilibrium of the matter and energies of the grand universe.They are some knid of power control creatures. Here is a bit more . . .15:8.2 [Part I]Further regulative functions are performed by the superuniverse power centers and physical controllers, living and semiliving intelligent entities constituted for this express purpose. These power centers and controllers are difficult of understanding; the lower orders are not volitional, they do not possess will, they do not choose, their functions are very intelligent but apparently automatic and inherent in their highly specialized organization. The power centers and physical controllers of the superuniverses assume direction and partial control of the thirty energy systems which comprise the gravita domain. The physical-energy circuits administered by the power centers of Uversa require a little over 968 million years to complete the encirclement of the superuniverse.There certainly is more to know about these ” living and semiliving intelligent entities . . . .”
Thank you for reply Mara! call me randy. maybe if we could understand the different power centers it would help us to understand the the relationship between milky way and orvonton. in studying the lighthouse beacon effect of a pulsar i can imagine it being used to transmit broadcasts across the galaxy. The less powerfull effects of a neutron star i can imagine being used as a local power source. The much greater and more distant effects of a quasar i can imagine as being an assistant master force organizer hard at work changing segregata into vast hydrogen clouds of primordial matter.
Login to reply to this topic.
Not registered? Sign up here.