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I ask because I have come across passages I feel could be read creatively. TUB tells us the Thought Adjuster communicates to the human mind by indirect means and through symbols. The following is an example of what I feel could possibly be approached from a creative frame of thought:
“The Father is always to be found at this central location. Did he move, universal pandemonium would be precipitated, for there converge in him at this residential center the universal lines of gravity from the ends of creation.”
How could the Celestial posit such outcome as a statement of fact to an event that, historically, had not happened? Unless he bases it on a model he believes explains this kind of phenomenon. And why associate this event with the word “pandemonium”?
The Lanonandek rebellion could be used as a model to explain such event, IMO. I suspect the Celestial draws from Lanonadek rebellions to claim Father’s removal from central location would release hordes of chaotic or ‘daemonic’ forces onto the world. My creative mind, as well, tells me rebellions are evidence that Father, by whatever means, could be removed from central location. In fact, I theorize that the system rebellion of Satania (besides the other two) signaled that Father had been displaced from central location. And that the effects from his removal have cascaded into our universe down to the systems manifesting as open rebellion against Michael.
BTW, Pandemonium means all ‘demons’
BB
To add, Lanonandeks are descending sons of God. To a degree they portray a ‘heavenly father’ image to lower creation. There are parallels between Lanonandeks and The Father.
BB
You should write novels BB. The ideas you created would scare the bejesus out of people. And since people seem to enjoy being terrified, you’d make millions. I’m serious. You could be the next John Milton.
If the Father left Paradise there would be no Paradise, they are all ONE. And if there is no Paradise there is nothing. All gravitation, physical, mental and spiritual, would be lost. What would the universe look like without gravity? That’s what they mean by pandemonium. (Although the word originates from Milton’s Paradise Lost, it is being used poetically here.)
Furthermore, the Father does not recognize sin. What he sees is the personality, and when the personality identifies itself completely with evil, it vanishes from his sight. Because the Father is pure spirit, he does not recognize sin which is nonspiritual. Sin is nothing and nothing cannot exist. Likewise, if there is no Father and no Paradise, there is nothing. And since nothing cannot exist, this situation of the hypothetical removal of the Father and Paradise also cannot occur.
You should write novels BB. The ideas you created would scare the bejesus out of people. And since people seem to enjoy being terrified, you’d make millions. I’m serious.
LOLOL You just gave me an idea!
BB
… If the Father left Paradise there would be no Paradise, they are all ONE. And if there is no Paradise there is nothing. All gravitation, physical, mental and spiritual, would be lost. What would the universe look like without gravity? That’s what they mean by pandemonium. (Although the word originates from Milton’s Paradise Lost, it is being used poetically here.) Furthermore, the Father does not recognize sin. What he sees is the personality, and when the personality identifies itself completely with evil, it vanishes from his sight. Because the Father is pure spirit, he does not recognize sin which is nonspiritual. Sin is nothing and nothing cannot exist. Likewise, if there is no Father and no Paradise, there is nothing. And since nothing cannot exist, this situation of the hypothetical removal of the Father and Paradise also cannot occur.
I think the level of pandemonium unleashed would be proportional to his degree of displacement from paradise. So it does not necessarily mean all gravitation, physical, mental and spiritual, would be lost as it would depend on how far has he removed himself from central location. Also I am aware of the word’s origin. Still, the celestial uses it in a declarative way. As for sin… I think other factors come into play, and progressively could lead to sin (eg, error, evil). I am not saying Father is capable of sinning. However, there are states of existence within which Father is able to place himself that would lead to disharmony, as testified by the celestial. Perhaps pandemonium is part of the evolving divinity of Supreme Being. One thing I am certain of is that the celestial delivers the idea of pandemonium as a real event.
BB
The Father is perfect in every way. The Father is stability and order. He is incapable of ever doing anything wrong, which would be error. Therefore, nothing the Father does will ever result in pandemonium. Imperfection, or error, is the cause of instability and chaos. And that is why he mandates that everyone become perfect as he is, so the instability and chaos will settle into stability and order, just like Paradise. That’s when we will have light and life and the full evolution and revelation of the Supreme Being.
[Incidentally, I only brought up Milton’s Paradise Lost because that is exactly what you’re proposing with moving God out of Paradise. Paradise would be lost. It was meant to show irony not to ridicule or demean you.]
Bonita, why do you think the celestial references pandemonium? And why does he speak on an event that is supposed to be unreal or could never happen? What lesson could be gained from that? (I did not take your statement as demeaning or ridicule. It did not come across that way.)
BB
It’s a writing style used to illustrate the absurd. You can almost hear them chuckling with the idea of God moving from Paradise and gravity ceasing to exist. If gravity ceased to exist what would happen to matter? The first thing you’d notice is yourself floating off the planet into space. The whole thing is unthinkable and absurd. But it would make a great cartoon, comic book, or sic-fi book. So go for it! I love that kind of stuff, as long as there is a happy ending, like God eventually waking up from his sleepwalking and getting back to his digs.
Seriously though, the improbability of this absurdity ever happening is why they use the word always. I don’t think the revelators use words like always and never haphazardly. They are quite certain that the Father is always found at this central location. They’re just trying to show you how ridiculous it is to think he would get up and move around. That’s what all his minions are for . . .
11:1.4 The Father is always to be found at this central location. Did he move, universal pandemonium would be precipitated, for there converge in him at this residential center the universal lines of gravity from the ends of creation. . . . Here is God personally, literally, and actually present. And from his infinite being there flow the flood-streams of life, energy, and personality to all universes.
It is possible that he is illustrating the absurd and, equally, speaking in a matter-of-fact way. The celestial speaks in the present tense, as you point out. This poses a few problems I had not realized initially. He addresses the event in the present tense while omitting the past and future. Yet, Paradise is timeless and space-less. Why speak of Father, engaged in an event, within a time and space context, when his Paradise presence is timeless and space-less? However, viewing Father at the experiential level of deity, conceivably, one could speculate of the reality of His displacement from central location and ‘pandemonium’ ensuing. I mentioned previously that I believe there is a link between moving from central location, pandemonium and The Supreme. I need to study this further. Thanks for your input, Bonita. It has inspired me to look into this even more.
“11:1.4 The Father is always to be found at this central location. Did he move, universal pandemonium would be precipitated, for there converge in him at this residential center the universal lines of gravity from the ends of creation.”
BB
I ask because I have come across passages I feel could be read creatively. TUB tells us the Thought Adjuster communicates to the human mind by indirect means and through symbols. The following is an example of what I feel could possibly be approached from a creative frame of thought:
“The Father is always to be found at this central location. Did he move, universal pandemonium would be precipitated, for there converge in him at this residential center the universal lines of gravity from the ends of creation.”
How could the Celestial posit such outcome as a statement of fact to an event that, historically, had not happened? Unless he bases it on a model he believes explains this kind of phenomenon. And why associate this event with the word “pandemonium”?
Yes B.B., a creative reading of the Urantia Book can open many avenues to the imagination and it was also alluded that Gene Roddenberry got some of his ideas from reading the Urantia Book, but there has never been any conformation to this allegation, however, he was quoted as having said that there was much more information in the achieves from where it was assumed that he got many of his ideas from for the Star Trek Series.
Nevertheless, you focus on the word “pandemonium” in the Urantia Book, where it is used four times as follows:
“(119.1) 11:1.4 The Father is always to be found at this central location. Did he move, universal pandemonium would be precipitated, for there converge in him at this residential center the universal lines of gravity from the ends of creation. Whether we trace the personality circuit back through the universes or follow the ascending personalities as they journey inward to the Father; whether we trace the lines of material gravity to nether Paradise or follow the insurging cycles of cosmic force; whether we trace the lines of spiritual gravity to the Eternal Son or follow the inward processional of the Paradise Sons of God; whether we trace out the mind circuits or follow the trillions upon trillions of celestial beings who spring from the Infinite Spirit — by any of these observations or by all of them we are led directly back to the Father’s presence, to his central abode. Here is God personally, literally, and actually present. And from his infinite being there flow the flood-streams of life, energy, and personality to all universes.”
“(618.2) 54:5.13 12. Time, even in a universe of time, is relative: If a Urantia mortal of average length of life should commit a crime which precipitated world-wide pandemonium, and if he were apprehended, tried, and executed within two or three days of the commission of the crime, would it seem a long time to you? And yet that would be nearer a comparison with the length of Lucifer’s life even if his adjudication, now begun, should not be completed for a hundred thousand Urantia years. The relative lapse of time from the viewpoint of Uversa, where the litigation is pending, could be indicated by saying that the crime of Lucifer was being brought to trial within two and a half seconds of its commission. From the Paradise viewpoint the adjudication is simultaneous with the enactment.”
“(758.6) 67:5.1 Great confusion reigned in Dalamatia and thereabout for almost fifty years after the instigation of rebellion. The complete and radical reorganization of the whole world was attempted; revolution displaced evolution as the policy of cultural advancement and racial improvement. Among the superior and partially trained sojourners in and near Dalamatia there appeared a sudden advancement in cultural status, but when these new and radical methods were attempted on the outlying peoples, indescribable confusion and racial pandemonium was the immediate result. Liberty was quickly translated into license by the half-evolved primitive men of those days.”
“(849.5) 76:3.2 Adam wisely spent most of the time training his children and their associates in civil administration, educational methods, and religious devotions. Had it not been for this foresight, pandemonium would have broken loose upon his death. As it was, the death of Adam made little difference in the conduct of the affairs of his people. But long before Adam and Eve passed away, they recognized that their children and followers had gradually learned to forget the days of their glory in Eden. And it was better for the majority of their followers that they did forget the grandeur of Eden; they were not so likely to experience undue dissatisfaction with their less fortunate environment.”
Then the use of the word “pandemonium” has been noted of having the, “Origin: 1660–70; after Pandaemonium, Milton’s name in Paradise Lost for the capital of hell; see pan-, demon, -ium“
Where it has also been noted by some scholars of the Old and New Testament that prior to the resurrection of Jesus, that paradise or heaven and hell or hades, were located at the center of the Earth, where after Jesus’ resurrection paradise was moved from that center to a spiritual place in the heavens. This should not necessarily be taken literally, but may indicate a metaphorical situation, which can point to other creative narrations, which to some degree, can fill in the blanks or add to an overall, more complete story line.
The reason why I brought up Gene Roddenberry, earlier is because, as I have mentioned on the other forums that Gene’s hope that Star Trek would follow along a different creative agenda, which did not occur, he proposed other creative endeavors which he wished to project a more direct story line, in one of these creative areas was posthumously produced as “Gene Roddenberry’s Andromeda” TV Series, which ran for five years. There is one more TV Series which was produced which started off, in the first episodes as depicting extra terrestrial beings which seemed, IMO, to assimilate the arrival of Adam and Eve in the Urantia Book, where these beings were portrayed as eight to ten feet tale dressed in violet type clad and, to me, indicated a parallel to the Urantia Book descriptions, for which the aforementioned assumption of Gene having read the UB as a possibility, but after the first few episodes, these beings were depicted as normal height, most likely to production limitations. This series was called Earth: Final Conflict.
Now in the Andromeda Series, there were a race of people or creatures which were called the Magog, who came from what was called the Magog World Ship, who’s leader was called the Spirit of the Abyss, where this leader appeared as pure energy enclosed in a humanoid shell, but the idea which Gene seemed to project was that there were trillions and trillions of these Magog who’s primary function was to reproduce through an evasive method which would take over an alternate host being. Now this is the kind of creative association which takes me to many different areas of interest, even though the original narrator of any narration may not be implying too, but certainly may spawn the imagination to associate other meaning from what might be interpreted as simple text. As mentioned before thee are areas in the Bible which can and do reference alternative interpretations, and were it not so, then how is it that the Hebrews were able to extract 613 various laws from the interpretation of the first five books of the Bible, more specifically Deuteronomy.
So I find your topic here as an interesting addition which could project many different scenarios, from just a few isolated paragraphs.
Seriously though, the improbability of this absurdity ever happening is why they use the word always. I don’t think the revelators use words like always and never haphazardly. They are quite certain that the Father is always found at this central location. They’re just trying to show you how ridiculous it is to think he would get up and move around. That’s what all his minions are for . . .
True Bonita, but if the Father’s Spirit or personality were not everywhere, then could the Thought Adjusters not exist as described in the UB, nor would the inference that all exists within the Father, would be a lie. So, if all exist within the Father then we exist within the Father and His reach is everywhere. It would make more sense that the Father’s singularity point it focused on this area of the universe, and that His personality is also everywhere to be found, all that one needs to do is look, to be able to see Him.
Thanks, Midi! You are forever catching UB references that help me gain more understanding. Based on the below, it seems to me, the Celestial is drawing an analogy between system rebellion and pandemonium. So one could infer that there is an indirect link between Lucifer and rebellion and Father and Pandemonium, possibly understood within the framework of divine evolution of the Supreme. I also do think that various sections within UB narratives, when isolated from the overall context of the narratives, could extend into unrevealed knowledge not explicitly spelled out in TUB. TAs work within that arena of creative imagination I would assume.
“(618.2) 54:5.13 12. Time, even in a universe of time, is relative: If a Urantia mortal of average length of life should commit a crime which precipitated world-wide pandemonium, and if he were apprehended, tried, and executed within two or three days of the commission of the crime, would it seem a long time to you? And yet that would be nearer a comparison with the length of Lucifer’s life even if his adjudication, now begun, should not be completed for a hundred thousand Urantia years. The relative lapse of time from the viewpoint of Uversa, where the litigation is pending, could be indicated by saying that the crime of Lucifer was being brought to trial within two and a half seconds of its commission. From the Paradise viewpoint the adjudication is simultaneous with the enactment.”
BB
“Supreme and self-acting Adjusters are often able to contribute factors of spiritual import to the human mind when it flows freely in the liberated but controlled channels of creative imagination…”
BB
True Bonita, but if the Father’s Spirit or personality were not everywhere, then could the Thought Adjusters not exist as described in the UB, nor would the inference that all exists within the Father, would be a lie. So, if all exist within the Father then we exist within the Father and His reach is everywhere. It would make more sense that the Father’s singularity point it focused on this area of the universe, and that His personality is also everywhere to be found, all that one needs to do is look, to be able to see Him.
The dilemma to me in this assertion is that rebellion happens because the Father is NOT everywhere or not an awareness of Him anyway. In the local universes, at least, the Son is the Father to all creatures except the infused mortals. Really enjoying the discussion, much of which is beyond my comfort to assert any helpful perspective. My experience though in text is that when confronted with two poles in apparent opposition, both are true or it lies comfortably in between if viewed properly. The text seems clear enough as to God’s position and yet omnipresence results within that position simultaneously. BB, as always, you present most interesting topics, points, and perspective. To teach by learning and asking. Ever notice this methodology of the Master in teaching? Not comparing of course….just reflecting on the technique….Jesus inquired when knowing the answer better than anyone asked. Peace all.
Although God is omnipresent he never leaves Paradise because he recognizes the sovereignty of his coordinate creators in time and space (3:1.6). It is through the omnipresence of the Infinite Spirit via God the Sevenfold, the omnipresence of the spirit of the Eternal Son via his Sons and the personality circuit of the Adjusters that we are aware of Deity presence within our souls. We are able to have a personal experience of God because of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and the Adjuster within us. And yet God can do all of this while staying put on Paradise because he has no reason to leave. We go to him.
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