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Thanks Mark,
Good points you make. Honesty, integrity, loyalty, sincerity, have to be there in substantial measure to create a viable personal or global philosophy, we know that for sure.
That’s the perfect metaphor: Balance is a moving target. Yet soo essential for any hope of happiness and progress amidst Urantia’s perennial, exasperating, frustrating, benighted, normally insane, turmoil. Let us feast
Love to you and Ms~
Richard E Warren
Rick Warren wrote: Therefore the highest quality human philosophy would be expressed in a person with a preponderance of Adamic DNA, well rounded education and training, wholly spiritually inspired, and with full access to the truths and trials of existence. No?No . . . wait. Amadon did not have Adamic DNA, nor a well rounded education, or even that much in the way of smarts, yet he followed God’s will. He had a truly lofty philosophy of living, as far as I can tell. One of the best.
p757:2 67:3.9 Caligastia, with a maximum of intelligence and a vast experience in universe affairs, went astray – embraced sin. Amadon, with a minimum of intelligence and utterly devoid of universe experience, remained steadfast in the service of the universe and in loyalty to his associate.
It’s not so much what you are, but what you are striving to become that really matters. It’s all about the striving. A noble philosophy of living is one that is always striving for perfection. If we are striving to find the highest concepts of TBG and then sincerely attempting to apply them to all the relationships in our lives (both people and things), then we are striving for perfection, for divinity, for doing God’s will. That’s what I’d call a worthy philosophy of living.
The goal of human living is divinity attainment and this can be done with normal DNA and normal mind. Even the environment is not that important, really. Sometimes a very harsh environment results in greater striving. It’s really all about the striving. That’s what feeds the soul.
p1216:6 111:1.5 And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity.
The best philosophy is to keep your eyes on the goal.
p365:4 32:5.8 The goal of eternity is ahead! The adventure of divinity attainment lies before you! The race for perfection is on! whosoever will may enter, and certain victory will crown the efforts of every human being who will run the race of faith and trust, depending every step of the way on the leading of the indwelling Adjuster and on the guidance of that good spirit of the Universe Son, which so freely has been poured out upon all flesh.
p1206:2 110:3.4 The great goal of human existence is to attune to the divinity of the indwelling Adjuster; the great achievement of mortal life is the attainment of a true and understanding consecration to the eternal aims of the divine spirit who waits and works within your mind.
Good point (which I will gladly cede, but with rebuttal), Bonita,
And also to your point, you didn’t mention Jesus, who we are told didn’t have pure violet blood, yet he would become the premier philosophy master in all Nebadon.
Rebuttal: I did specify “the highest quality”. And if one doesn’t happen to be a descending Son, doesn’t have access to a Van type, or the tree of life, then I believe my statement is ballpark correct. Otherwise we wouldn’t need genetic upstepping for better bodies and minds which might more readily and easily be host for Adjusters–because of a greater ability/capacity to grasp and live out divine values of TB&G. But having less than ideal genes and life experience does not mean humans can’t find God who indwells them. On that we have no disagreement?
Richard E Warren
Sorry Rick. I’m not following you. If Jesus had the highest quality philosophy, then by your argument he would have had to have pure violet blood and the highest education possible. The fact that he didn’t have either means that the highest attainable mortal philosophy of living is not entirely dependent upon DNA or education .
Consider the following quote which states that spiritual evolution of the soul is not dependent upon education, mental culture or wisdom. It’s based on the mental capacity to choose. The ability to recognize choices, which means having a soul and a personality. That’s all it takes, really. I agree that the greater the mental and spiritual receptivity of the individual, the greater the odds that the individual will achieve the highest goal of a noble philosophy of living, but it is achievable regardless.
65:8.4 As mind evolution is dependent on, and delayed by, the slow development of physical conditions, so is spiritual progress dependent on mental expansion and unfailingly delayed by intellectual retardation. But this does not mean that spiritual evolution is dependent on education, culture, or wisdom. The soul may evolve regardless of mental culture but not in the absence of mental capacity and desire – the choice of survival and the decision to achieve ever-increasing perfection – to do the will of the Father in heaven. Although survival may not depend on the possession of knowledge and wisdom, progression most certainly does.
If you want to split hairs over what makes one individual have more of a capacity of receptivity than another, I would say it’s more about the person who is the most humble, childlike and trusting, the person willing to be led, the person dedicated to serving others, rather than DNA or education.
Actually, they tell us that prayer is the way to increase one’s capacity of receptivity, and this can be done regardless of DNA or education, as Jesus made so evident with the choice of his apostles. They were of many levels of intellect and inheritance. And although it is admirable to strive for the highest level of spirituality and divinity, we ourselves cannot attain such a thing on conscious levels. All true goodness is unconscious, all true growth is unconscious. It’s the conditions that really matter, and the conditions are determined by the striving for perfection, a goal that actually never ends, and a goal that can be attempted and achieved with at least a normal DNA inheritance and education.
They say that it is our characters that we inherit and that an inferior character cannot be easily compensated for by environment. But the inheritance of an ideal character can be ruined by a bad environment. Yet, I don’t think God holds it against us for having a base heredity or an inferior environment. Both can be compensated for by a desire for God’s help, which is what gave Cain his Adjuster. I still think striving is the answer to discovering, recognizing, interpreting and choosing divine values. Ask and you shall receive, as Jesus said.
848:6 76:2.6 The observation of Abel’s conduct establishes the value of environment and education as factors in character development. Abel had an ideal inheritance, and heredity lies at the bottom of all character; but the influence of an inferior environment virtually neutralized this magnificent inheritance. Abel, especially during his younger years, was greatly influenced by his unfavorable surroundings. He would have become an entirely different person had he lived to be twenty-five or thirty; his superb inheritance would then have shown itself. While a good environment cannot contribute much toward really overcoming the character handicaps of a base heredity, a bad environment can very effectively spoil an excellent inheritance, at least during the younger years of life. Good social environment and proper education are indispensable soil and atmosphere for getting the most out of a good inheritance.
…If Jesus had the highest quality philosophy, then by your argument he would have had to have pure violet blood and the highest education possible. The fact that he didn’t have either means that the highest attainable mortal philosophy of living is not entirely dependent upon DNA or education.
“Not entirely” we agree on. The potentials for all arenas of thought and experience (including philosophy) are increased with better DNA, or they wouldn’t bother sending Adam and Eves. Why is it the three brained have a spiritual advantage of two brainers? Better capacity.
…While the terrestrial attainments of the one-brained races are slightly limited in comparison with the two-brained orders, the older planets of the three–brained group exhibit civilizations that would astound Urantians, and which would somewhat shame yours by comparison. In mechanical development and material civilization, even in intellectual progress, the two-brained mortal worlds are able to equal the three–brained spheres. But in the higher control of mind and development of intellectual and spiritual reciprocation, you are somewhat inferior…. 49:5:15
Richard E Warren
“Not entirely” we agree on. The potentials for all arenas of thought and experience (including philosophy) are increased with better DNA, or they wouldn’t bother sending Adam and Eves. Why is it the three brained have a spiritual advantage of two brainers? Better capacity.
But we already have all the DNA uplifting we’re going to get. According to your theory, we have a bleak chance of developing a higher philosophy of living from where we are now. It also gives the weak-willed an excuse to stop trying. It’s easy to say, “Hey, I only have two lobes in this head and less than 1% Adamic DNA, so don’t expect a lot from me. Who do you think I am anyway, Jesus?” I think your theory could actually do harm.
The celestials do say that they are trying to foster the “higher spiritual types” on this planet (110:4.6). They can’t create them, but they can foster them. The angels are responsible for inspiring us to pray (113:4.4), and prayer is the best way to increase capacity for receptivity (144:4.2; 146:2.14; 168:4.6; 194:3.20). We also know that we can always pray for the mind of Jesus to live in us (48:6.26;102:4.1). I think this gift of his, the Spirit of Truth, can compensate for problems with DNA, brain size and education. If that were not true, then we would not have advanced far enough to warrant another Revelation. We’d still be sacrificing animals.
Also, when they’re talking about increasing capacity for receptivity, they’re talking about the soul intellect, not the material mind intellect. The soul is a morontia phenomenon, and although it is dependent upon the material mind for continued growth, all it really needs is its willingness. The soul is not dependent upon IQ, or mental culture; it will grow as long as there are moral choices to be made. As long as the brain is developed enough to make contact with the last two adjutants and enter the seventh psychic circle, it is developed enough for soul growth. (I still can’t underline with consistency, look at the 3rd sentence in 5:5.13.)
p69:8 5:5.13 Eternal survival of personality is wholly dependent on the choosing of the mortal mind, whose decisions determine the survival potential of the immortal soul. When the mind believes God and the soul knows God, and when, with the fostering Adjuster, they all desire God, then is survival assured. Limitations of intellect, curtailment of education, deprivation of culture, impoverishment of social status, even inferiority of the human standards of morality resulting from the unfortunate lack of educational, cultural, and social advantages, cannot invalidate the presence of the divine spirit in such unfortunate and humanly handicapped but believing individuals. The indwelling of the Mystery Monitor constitutes the inception and insures the possibility of the potential of growth and survival of the immortal soul.
I think the highest philosophy is dependent more on soul growth than on a high percentage of Adamic DNA or a couple of Phd.’s. I mean, the values of TBG are found in the soul; TBG are the highest comprehensible elements of divinity and revelations of the nature of God we are capable of; and all are found in the soul. Not only are they discovered there, but they are also recognized and interpreted, (given meaning) there. So, I believe that soul intelligence is more important that material intelligence when it comes to the development of a noble character. DNA and education are about the material intellect, not the soul intellect.
To the discussion I’d like to add that one’s capacity for spiritual development can be increased in direct proportion to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love. Usefulness to one’s fellow beings is the measure and indicator of one’s spirituality and nearness to God. Such nearness to God, spirituality, enhances TB&G to the extent, depth and breadth the individual person is able to or is willing to discover or recognize it. Evolutionary religions are mind-derivative. Revealed religion expands evolutionary religion and confirms to the heart and soul of the individual person that God is both within and also out there in the vast cosmos..100:2:4 Spirituality becomes at once the indicator of one’s nearness to God and the measure of one’s usefulness to fellow beings. Spirituality enhances the ability to discover beauty in things, recognize truth in meanings, and discover goodness in values. Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love..100:3:4 […] Values are experiential when realities are meaningful and mentally associated, when such relationships are recognized and appreciated by mind..Religion is concerned only with values – the faith experience. Science with facts – the domain of knowledge. And as I see it, one’s philosophy is the arena where the person searches for meaning in bringing a unity to one’s understanding of the facts of science with one’s faith-experience.101:5:2 Science deals with facts; religion is concerned only with values. Through enlightened philosophy the mind endeavors to unite the meanings of both facts and values, thereby arriving at a concept of complete reality. Remember that science is the domain of knowledge, philosophy the realm of wisdom, and religion the sphere of the faith experience. But religion, nonetheless, presents two phases of manifestation:.1. Evolutionary religion. The experience of primitive worship, the religion which is a mind derivative.2. Revealed religion. The universe attitude which is a spirit derivative; the assurance of, and belief in, the conservation of eternal realities, the survival of personality, and the eventual attainment of the cosmic Deity, whose purpose has made all this possible. It is a part of the plan of the universe that, sooner or later, evolutionary religion is destined to receive the spiritual expansion of revelation.This discussion has been a veritable feast for me! Thank you….all of you….for your well-considered and thought-provoking comments, all made in a spirit of unity and good will. I so much admire your collective knowledge and understanding of this truly amazing revelation. Love to all.
Paper 101.1.1
true religion is not a system of philosophic belief which can be reasoned out and substantiated by natural proofs, etc…
doesnt soul growth imply religious experience?
and it goes on to say that : the divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking.
im thinking that the most impressive or effective philosophy is more of a path to social skills or civilization progress, that is if you do something with it. Soul growth – I don’t know. Philosophy is not really the highest and most spiritualized type of thinking is it?
I just did a word search and there are three uses of the word ” super philosophic”
too late tonight but I’ll read up on that tomorrow
But we already have all the DNA uplifting we’re going to get.
Really? Won’t all things be restored that should be, when the rebellion and quarantine are over?
According to your theory, we have a bleak chance of developing a higher philosophy of living from where we are now.
Bleak? No, just more difficult than if the rebellion hadn’t happened.
It also gives the weak-willed an excuse to stop trying. It’s easy to say, “Hey, I only have two lobes in this head and less than 1% Adamic DNA, so don’t expect a lot from me. Who do you think I am anyway, Jesus?”
That didn’t happen for you, me and others. Don’t the truly hungry always get fed?
I think your theory could actually do harm.
Hopefully it will engender more interest, bring out more thoughtful reflection, elicit more questions and ideas, like yours.
…I think this gift of his, the Spirit of Truth, can compensate for problems with DNA, brain size and education. If that were not true, then we would not have advanced far enough to warrant another Revelation. We’d still be sacrificing animals. Also, when they’re talking about increasing capacity for receptivity, they’re talking about the soul intellect, not the material mind intellect. The soul is a morontia phenomenon, and although it is dependent upon the material mind for continued growth, all it really needs is its willingness. The soul is not dependent upon IQ, or mental culture; it will grow as long as there are moral choices to be made. As long as the brain is developed enough to make contact with the last two adjutants and enter the seventh psychic circle, it is developed enough for soul growth. (I still can’t underline with consistency, look at the 3rd sentence in 5:5.13.)
p69:8 5:5.13 Eternal survival of personality is wholly dependent on the choosing of the mortal mind, whose decisions determine the survival potential of the immortal soul. When the mind believes God and the soul knows God, and when, with the fostering Adjuster, they all desire God, then is survival assured. Limitations of intellect, curtailment of education, deprivation of culture, impoverishment of social status, even inferiority of the human standards of morality resulting from the unfortunate lack of educational, cultural, and social advantages, cannot invalidate the presence of the divine spirit in such unfortunate and humanly handicapped but believing individuals. The indwelling of the Mystery Monitor constitutes the inception and insures the possibility of the potential of growth and survival of the immortal soul.
I think the highest philosophy is dependent more on soul growth than on a high percentage of Adamic DNA or a couple of Phd.’s. I mean, the values of TBG are found in the soul; TBG are the highest comprehensible elements of divinity and revelations of the nature of God we are capable of; and all are found in the soul. Not only are they discovered there, but they are also recognized and interpreted, (given meaning) there. So, I believe that soul intelligence is more important that material intelligence when it comes to the development of a noble character. DNA and education are about the material intellect, not the soul intellect.
…Good points all, but still, our overseers would not try to upgrade physical and intellectual abilities and capacities if there were no advantage. The Adjuster, the Spirit of Truth, our DNA, our angels, all conspire to bring the spirit fruits out of the individual and group. On that we might agree?
Richard E Warren
To the discussion I’d like to add that one’s capacity for spiritual development can be increased in direct proportion to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love. Usefulness to one’s fellow beings is the measure and indicator of one’s spirituality and nearness to God. Such nearness to God, spirituality, enhances TB&G to the extent, depth and breadth the individual person is able to or is willing to discover or recognize it. Evolutionary religions are mind-derivative. Revealed religion expands evolutionary religion and confirms to the heart and soul of the individual person that God is both within and also out there in the vast cosmos.Beautifully expressed, Mara. And since we have revelation, we do have mota (in a limited sense), for enhancing the understanding and inculcation of divine values, even here on Urantia, in the flesh. And we certainly are capable of developing our love past selfishness, if sufficiently educated and motivated.
Richard E Warren
This discussion has been a veritable feast for me! Thank you….all of you….for your well-considered and thought-provoking comments, all made in a spirit of unity and good will. I so much admire your collective knowledge and understanding of this truly amazing revelation. Love to all.
Thanks for chiming in, Julian,
Very happy to hear you like the menu. Add a dish if you like.
Much love to you and yours.
Richard E Warren
Yes. Mind is a wonderful thing to use!
A good philosophical launching point at least. :D
Richard E Warren
Paper 101.1.1
true religion is not a system of philosophic belief which can be reasoned out and substantiated by natural proofs, etc…
doesnt soul growth imply religious experience?
and it goes on to say that : the divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking.
im thinking that the most impressive or effective philosophy is more of a path to social skills or civilization progress, that is if you do something with it. Soul growth – I don’t know. Philosophy is not really the highest and most spiritualized type of thinking is it?
I just did a word search and there are three uses of the word ” super philosophic”
too late tonight but I’ll read up on that tomorrow
Some worthy points you make, Gene. And super philosophy would be an excellent tangent to explore within this thread. Thanks!
.
Richard E Warren
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