-
Posts
-
Any philosophy that doesn’t recognize and adopt them as universal standards is off the mark and doomed to ignominy.
As usual, the points I spend so much time on explaining are totally lost on my readers. I never said that philosophy should not recognize and adopt TBG. What I said is that there is more than TBG to be considered. TBG are the overlying values to be applied to matter, mind and spirit; they are not the philosophy itself but one factor in its development. In order to make a philosophy, you also have to consider the physical world, the intellect and religion (causation, duty and worship).
There are only three elements of reality: fact, idea and relation. In making a philosophy you have to consider all three elements of reality. If you don’t, you’ll lose people, and maybe that’s why no one has any interest in the subject. Ya gotta have something they can relate to, something in the real world, not just in the ether.
Forgive me for not including the quotes. I can’t deal with the formatting issue and I have a foot of snow to shovel, another foot on the way. Nice chatting. Thanks for the response. See you later if I don’t slip a disc.
As usual, the points I spend so much time on explaining are totally lost on my readers. I never said that philosophy should not recognize and adopt TBG. What I said is that there is more than TBG to be considered. TBG are the overlying values to be applied to matter, mind and spirit; they are not the philosophy itself but one factor in its development. In order to make a philosophy, you also have to consider the physical world, the intellect and religion (causation, duty and worship). There are only three elements of reality: fact, idea and relation. In making a philosophy you have to consider all three elements of reality. If you don’t, you’ll lose people, and maybe that’s why no one has any interest in the subject. Ya gotta have something they can relate to, something in the real world, not just in the ether. Forgive me for not including the quotes. I can’t deal with the formatting issue and I have a foot of snow to shovel, another foot on the way. Nice chatting. Thanks for the response. See you later if I don’t slip a disc.
Careful there! You better move down south where winters have all but disappeared. Hope you are warm and well stocked. Evidently you have power.
So now we’re discussing the breadth of philosophy. We’ve already stipulated what the authors declare, that it is the reconciler of science and religion. Science includes the physical, in fact, nothing else in its current state. Religion necessarily embraces goodness. And philosophy itself is beauty’s greatest observer, analyzer, and advocate. TB&G are inclusive of philosophy, not the reverse, I submit.
Bringing philosophy down to the level of the average person is the responsibility of teachers (all of us at some point), who, in order to succeed, must observe the Master’s advice to give milk to babes, and presumably, solid food to the mature. Eventually, I believe, the appeal and necessity of philosophy will triumph and it will be taught from kindergarten to the grave. Some good teachers, teachers with genuine talent for it, can make just about any subject palatable.
Yesterday I was inspired by comments about teaching by a reader on Facebook, which have resonance with some of your words. She wrote in part:
…My best teachers were able to make the subject relevant to me, the individual, while showing me how my participation, in understanding the relative truth of the course, could help me benefit my fellowman. For example, my greatest history teacher let the musically inclined create and perform the music of the period, those who were speakers, narrated the history of the times, while those philosophically versed, narrated the ” thinking” of that time period.. Therefore, most were thrilled that their personal ” talent ” was being used in the comprehensive effort to understand a distant people and their mark on history. Since we were asked, to use our distinct talents, history became relevant to us. In addition, I have noticed, a great love for one’s fellowman seems to be the prerequisite of a great philosophy or teacher. In my experience, great mentors engage their pupils with a sense that they are an important part of the process. To me philosophy is the art of thinking and we all think somewhat differently. Consequently, I have come to recognize personal philosophy, wisely, coordinated by truth, goodness and beauty, also, as an individualized ” talent ” with individualized resources in music, science, social studies, dance, art, labor, parenting, teaching etc. If we speak to people about what is important to them, they gradually unfold their personal insight and their progressive philosophy of life. Then, the teacher may nurture this learning process, while encouraging the coordinating factors of enlightened insight.
Richard E Warren
Rick Warren wrote: So now we’re discussing the breadth of philosophy. We’ve already stipulated what the authors declare, that it is the reconciler of science and religion. Science includes the physical, in fact, nothing else in its current state. Religion necessarily embraces goodness. And philosophy itself is beauty’s greatest observer, analyzer, and advocate. TB&G are inclusive of philosophy, not the reverse, I submit.I’m wondering if you might humor me by discussing the following quote:
2:6.1 In the physical universe we may see the divine beauty, in the intellectual world we may discern eternal truth, but the goodness of God is found only in the spiritual world of personal religious experience. In its true essence, religion is a faith-trust in the goodness of God. God could be great and absolute, somehow even intelligent and personal, in philosophy, but in religion God must also be moral; he must be good. Man might fear a great God, but he trusts and loves only a good God. This goodness of God is a part of the personality of God, and its full revelation appears only in the personal religious experience of the believing sons of God.
Looking just at beauty of the triad TBG: The physical world is more than science, as you say. The physical world also needs a triune approach coordinated by philosophy. The material facts and things of the physical world need to be reasoned with the mind and then coordinated with its reflection of divine beauty (the Isle of Paradise), a value discovered in the inner life with the Adjuster. This is the role of philosophy, to integrate the facts and things reasoned by mind with the insight of divine beauty experienced in the soul.
I don’t know if I’m making any sense. I try to explain things in as many different ways as I can come up with, but then it often sounds like I’m arguing, or worse, conceited and dogmatic about my opinions, and then I lose everyone. (Even been called acerbic and abrasive.) So, if you can’t see this point I’m trying to make about beauty, then I think I’ll just let it go and move on to other topics. No problem.
[And thanks for your concern about my well-being Rick. You’ve always been a gentleman and I want you to know how wonderful it is to know one. Three hours to make the first pass, two more passes to go . . . I have plenty of hot chocolate and brownies to get me through, like dangling a carrot in front of a mule. BTW, there are too many bugs in the south and I’d rather shovel than deal with hurricanes and tornados. I’m staying right here, God willing. Actually, I’m stuck here. Roads are closed. But it is beautiful, paradisiacal actually, now that I’m sitting in front of the fire. It’s all good, and that’s the truth.]
Thanks Bonita, glad you’re ok, and I will humor you. But tomorrow, gotta run now. Chat amongst yourselves.
Richard E Warren
This is the role of philosophy, to integrate the facts and things reasoned by mind with the insight of divine beauty experienced in the soul.
As you say above Bonita, that the role of philosophy is: “to integrate the facts and things reasoned by mind with the insight of divine beauty experienced in the soul.” Where you indicate that “philosophy” has a role to play in the soul’s experience, or so I read it, in short. Mara presented a UB quote which kind of defined the role of philosophy as an association with religion, in the following: ‘. . . “Philosophy is to religion as conception is to action.” . . .’ (98:2.12) In essence what you have said above is true and somewhat the same thing in my assessment. If religion can be associated to action, or in this case “religious experience” would reside in the soul as the ‘soul experiences’ which has ‘integrated’ with “conception” where a concept has many definitions which can include “facts”, the minds ‘reasoning’ with “insight” that can be associated with a reasonable amount of imagination, or ideas, as one attempts to create a conceptual action plan, or theory about some specific ‘thing’, or thought. So, that’s my understand of your statement.
“I don’t know if I’m making any sense. I try to explain things in as many different ways as I can come up with, but then it often sounds like I’m arguing, or worse, conceited and dogmatic about my opinions, and then I lose everyone. (Even been called acerbic and abrasive.) So, if you can’t see this point I’m trying to make about beauty, then I think I’ll just let it go . . .”
Of coarse you are making sense, but sometimes in explaining “things in as many different ways as” one can, which I also attempt to do as well, and heaven knows that “I lose everyone” from time to time, because I have a certain philosophical approach to thinking which has been conceived from many years of ‘religious experience’, to use a UB term. That being said, you indicate that you have a point to make about “beauty” which is still “in the eye of the beholder” and just because we don’t all see “beauty” the same way does not mean that it does not exist in association with other conceptions.
It might appear that differences in opinion are the same thing as saying that “if you are not with me, then you are against me,” and I don’t believe that this is the case, because as you have mentioned before that one must get to know another before they can truly understand each other. And by the posts on this forum, where your opinion and knowledge is much respected and appreciated, it is still comes from your religious experience, and is most useful to all, even if sometimes there is not 100% agreement.
. . . BTW, there are too many bugs in the south and I’d rather shovel than deal with hurricanes and tornados. I’m staying right here, God willing. Actually, I’m stuck here. Roads are closed. But it is beautiful, paradisiacal actually, now that I’m sitting in front of the fire. It’s all good, and that’s the truth.
I must agree, although for different reasons. For me it was the heat, having lived in Florida for 32 years. Fortunately I live a little bit further north from you and don’t have to deal with the two plus feet of snow as you do. As it turns out I’ll get about four to six inches, but my snow blower should handle that well enough as it has seen more in the past. I hope that you have someone who can help you with the snow removal, if not I’m sure there are enough young persons who would like a few bucks for work, now that your state has allowed for youth labor without needing to have a business license, as was an issue in the past. Good luck, and enjoy the “hot chocolate and brownies.”
This is the role of philosophy, to integrate the facts and things reasoned by mind with the insight of divine beauty experienced in the soul.
Not to nit pick but isn’t it personality doing this and philosophy is just how it gets talked about?
dont recall personality being mentioned yet but it seems appropriate to me.
Not to nit pick but isn’t it personality doing this and philosophy is just how it gets talked about?
Interesting conception “Gene” where it seems that your presumption of “philosophy” might indicate something which can be debated by one to another. This may be true to some degree, but in that case one might presume that there would be a specific subject of category being talked about. A persons personality can contribute to a philosophic discussion and a persons experience may affect their personality, but personality is much more than a philosophy.
From the section titled “The Cosmic Mind” we have the following which may shed some light on your premise.
(192.6) 16:6.10 In the local universe mind bestowals, these three insights of the cosmic mind constitute the a priori assumptions which make it possible for man to function as a rational and self-conscious personality in the realms of science, philosophy, and religion. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.
In my opinion personality does much more than contribute to discussion. It is the discussion. It is the coordinator and the integrator.
philosophy is nothing, merely a concept without personality. Philosophy cannot take any action, make use of mind or accomplish anything.
I’m wondering if you might humor me by discussing the following quote:
2:6.1 In the physical universe we may see the divine beauty, in the intellectual world we may discern eternal truth, but the goodness of God is found only in the spiritual world of personal religious experience. In its true essence, religion is a faith-trust in the goodness of God. God could be great and absolute, somehow even intelligent and personal, in philosophy, but in religion God must also be moral; he must be good. Man might fear a great God, but he trusts and loves only a good God. This goodness of God is a part of the personality of God, and its full revelation appears only in the personal religious experience of the believing sons of God.
Looking just at beauty of the triad TBG: The physical world is more than science, as you say. The physical world also needs a triune approach coordinated by philosophy. The material facts and things of the physical world need to be reasoned with the mind and then coordinated with its reflection of divine beauty (the Isle of Paradise), a value discovered in the inner life with the Adjuster. This is the role of philosophy, to integrate the facts and things reasoned by mind with the insight of divine beauty experienced in the soul. I don’t know if I’m making any sense. I try to explain things in as many different ways as I can come up with, but then it often sounds like I’m arguing, or worse, conceited and dogmatic about my opinions, and then I lose everyone. (Even been called acerbic and abrasive.) So, if you can’t see this point I’m trying to make about beauty, then I think I’ll just let it go and move on to other topics. No problem.
Hmmm…can’t see where we diverge on this, Bonita. You said it as well as a UB author: “…This is the role of philosophy, to integrate the facts and things reasoned by mind [science] with the insight of divine beauty experienced in the soul [religion].”
[And thanks for your concern about my well-being Rick. You’ve always been a gentleman and I want you to know how wonderful it is to know one. Three hours to make the first pass, two more passes to go . . . I have plenty of hot chocolate and brownies to get me through, like dangling a carrot in front of a mule. BTW, there are too many bugs in the south and I’d rather shovel than deal with hurricanes and tornados. I’m staying right here, God willing. Actually, I’m stuck here. Roads are closed. But it is beautiful, paradisiacal actually, now that I’m sitting in front of the fire. It’s all good, and that’s the truth.]
Ha! Understood, and we’ll be envious of you this summer (more truth).
Richard E Warren
Thanks for indulging me Rick. I guess we’re just describing the same thing differently. My only point in trying to expand the issue is to find a way to describe TBG as the building blocks of a worthwhile philosophy in such a way that would want people to think and talk about it. You said you have difficulty getting people interested, and that’s probably because they don’t see the connection between the physical world and the spiritual world. The words “truth, beauty and goodness,” are just words. They’re meaningless without something living to relate them to.
I think most people have a good handle on the physical or material level of thinking, but trying to find the ideal value (TBG) to marry it to is much harder. Usually the best the average person does is try to make a moral issue out of physical facts, things and ideas, which is a good start, but not good enough to deliver the prize. What you’re trying to do is get people to think with their souls, and if people don’t understand what a soul is, then there is another problem worth educating them about. I think TBG are soul level ideals.
Jesus was a master at getting people to think with their souls; he used parables to wake up the gateway to the soul. I’m not capable of that, and few are, so there’s another conundrum. I’m wondering if story telling would come close, offering real life issues that can be linked to higher values in a philosophical way rather than an ideological way. It’s a challenge, but I think someone out there might be able to do it. We need good teachers, or examples. And for now, I think that will primarily be a one-on-one phenomenon.
Enjoyed the chat. Thanks.
Learned a lot and also enjoyed it, thanks Bonita, and everyone who read or chimed in! Somehow, we know, philosophy will return to its rightful place in Urantian culture. When is the only variable. It’s important enough that the authors include it in this fairly ominous, and seemingly prescient, warning:
…Civilization is in danger when youth neglect to interest themselves in ethics, sociology, eugenics, philosophy, the fine arts, religion, and cosmology…. (1220.3) 111:4.4
Education, education, quality education, eh?
Richard E Warren
In my opinion personality does much more than contribute to discussion. It is the discussion. It is the coordinator and the integrator. philosophy is nothing, merely a concept without personality. Philosophy cannot take any action, make use of mind or accomplish anything.
Greetings Gene!!…and thanks to all!
Philosophy is like religion (and science too) in that all concepts related to each are dead and without meaning or value until those concepts are actualized by our living. When they determine our motives, intentions, and priorities for our free will choices, then and only then, do they bring results. To believe is not yet to act on belief. As has been said redundantly and eloquently here, philosophy unites, integrates, and harmonizes our dual nature and reality of living in the spirit and living in the material world and when based on universe fact and truth, it propels us into action….it is a cause with effect if acted upon and actualized in experience I think. Rodan says something similar regarding religion….it changes me in my hopes and priorities – and it motivates me to choose and act accordingly.
I think everyone has a philosophy of living…some are purely material (might makes right, eye for an eye, he who dies with the most toys wins, money/pleasures delivers happiness etc.) while others abandon the realities of material living for the purely aesthetic life of the mystic or monk, embracing the spiritual but abandoning the material life as illusionary. But both extremes miss the point of this life…and all life. It is not one or the other but the harmonization and balance of both that delivers peace of mind and happiness. I think the pursuit of happiness is a powerful driver of choice…and that experience should teach us that only love and service will deliver that which we seek most.
There was a season when I believed that serving God was my task…..I have revised this belief by realizing that God’s will and way is to serve his family and creation like a trusting child in a family of such children who take delight in playing, learning, working, and sharing all together in a blissful and confident way. Philosophy, when based upon this universe reality, remains very personal and experiential while gaining wisdom and power by the fruits of the spirit which are delivered by such a WAY of living. We all have our own WAY and our own path to realize such a truth and to live such truth. Or so I think.
Thanks again to all….a wonderful topic and discussion.
Gene wrote: [Bonita wrote: This is the role of philosophy, to integrate the facts and things reasoned by mind with the insight of divine beauty experienced in the soul.]Not to nit pick but isn’t it personality doing this and philosophy is just how it gets talked about?dont recall personality being mentioned yet but it seems appropriate to me.I think too there must be a person involved when talking about philosophy, otherwise it all too abstract, too intellectual. Interpretations of what is true, what is beautiful, what is good, occur along the continuum of a living person — all the parts of human creature endowment.44:7:3 Cosmic concepts of true philosophy, the portrayal of celestial artistry, or the mortal attempt to depict the human recognition of divine beauty can never be truly satisfying if such attempted creature progression is ununified. These expressions of the divine urge within the evolving creature may be intellectually true, emotionally beautiful, and spiritually good; but the real soul of expression is absent unless these realities of truth, meanings of beauty, and values of goodness are unified in the life experience of the artisan, the scientist, or the philosopher..We mustn’t forget personhood. Since personality is unique and since each one of us experience life in a unique way, it stands to reason each person contributes unique factors of truth, beauty and goodness to the growth of the Supreme Being..111:3:2 During the life in the flesh the evolving soul is enabled to reinforce the supermaterial decisions of the mortal mind. The soul, being supermaterial, does not of itself function on the material level of human experience. Neither can this subspiritual soul, without the collaboration of some spirit of Deity, such as the Adjuster, function above the morontia level. Neither does the soul make final decisions until death or translation divorces it from material association with the mortal mind except when and as this material mind delegates such authority freely and willingly to such a morontia soul of associated function. During life the mortal will, the personality power of decision-choice, is resident in the material mind circuits; as terrestrial mortal growth proceeds, this self, with its priceless powers of choice, becomes increasingly identified with the emerging morontia-soul entity; after death and following the mansion world resurrection, the human personality is completely identified with the morontia self. The soul is thus the embryo of the future morontia vehicle of personality identity.The soul, being supermaterial, does not of itself function on the material level of human experience..117:2:1 The Supreme is God-in-time; his is the secret of creature growth in time; his also is the conquest of the incomplete present and the consummation of the perfecting future. And the final fruits of all finite growth are: power controlled through mind by spirit by virtue of the unifying and creative presence of personality. The culminating consequence of all this growth is the Supreme Being.Jesus’ personality:100:7:18 Jesus was the perfectly unified human personality. And today, as in Galilee, he continues to unify mortal experience and to co-ordinate human endeavors. He unifies life, ennobles character, and simplifies experience. He enters the human mind to elevate, transform, and transfigure it. It is literally true: “If any man has Christ Jesus within him, he is a new creature; old things are passing away; behold, all things are becoming new.”Excellent additions Gene, Brad, Mara,
When you think about, not much has meaning or value without the presupposition of personhood/personality, including philosophy. Beauty requires a beholder, goodness is certainly a personal attribute, and truth cannot be known, explored or lived by an automaton.
Evidently, persons require philosophy. It is the great integrator of personally recognized meanings, values and destinies (purpose). The quality of one’s personal philosophy necessarily hinges genetics, experience, motivation and revelation. Therefore the highest quality human philosophy would be expressed in a person with a preponderance of Adamic DNA, well rounded education and training, wholly spiritually inspired, and with full access to the truths and trials of existence. No?
Richard E Warren
Yes, Rick and the quality of one’s personal philosophy depends on honesty. Jesus was a keen observer and he honestly considered everything he read, observed, heard and offered. Psychological balance he modeled very well. After all is said, it could assumed God desires honest balance for all we do. That’s tough sometimes because it seems balance is a moving target.
Wishing you all well while searching out balance.
Login to reply to this topic.
Not registered? Sign up here.