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Oh, I absolutely love what Jesus said about that myth.
130:1.2 One day after the evening meal Jesus and the young Philistine strolled down by the sea, and Gadiah, not knowing that this “scribe of Damascus” was so well versed in the Hebrew traditions, pointed out to Jesus the ship landing from which it was reputed that Jonah had embarked on his ill-fated voyage to Tarshish. And when he had concluded his remarks, he asked Jesus this question: “But do you suppose the big fish really did swallow Jonah?” Jesus perceived that this young man’s life had been tremendously influenced by this tradition, and that its contemplation had impressed upon him the folly of trying to run away from duty; Jesus therefore said nothing that would suddenly destroy the foundations of Gadiah’s present motivation for practical living. In answering this question, Jesus said: “My friend, we are all Jonahs with lives to live in accordance with the will of God, and at all times when we seek to escape the present duty of living by running away to far-off enticements, we thereby put ourselves in the immediate control of those influences which are not directed by the powers of truth and the forces of righteousness. The flight from duty is the sacrifice of truth. The escape from the service of light and life can only result in those distressing conflicts with the difficult whales of selfishness which lead eventually to darkness and death unless such God-forsaking Jonahs shall turn their hearts, even when in the very depths of despair, to seek after God and his goodness. And when such disheartened souls sincerely seek for God — hunger for truth and thirst for righteousness — there is nothing that can hold them in further captivity. No matter into what great depths they may have fallen, when they seek the light with a whole heart, the spirit of the Lord God of heaven will deliver them from their captivity; the evil circumstances of life will spew them out upon the dry land of fresh opportunities for renewed service and wiser living.”
The present duty of living in the service of light and life intrigues me. That’s the same as doing God’s will, right?. But the interesting thing is that a sincere grasp for the light of truth is enough to spew you out of the whale’s belly, it’s like magic, in a way. A little honest light-seeking goes a long, long way.
But anyway, yeah, many of those Old Testament stories were meant to inspire. They’re not all literally true . . . more like allegories. And apparently, that’s a real improvement in the history of religion.
88:2.9 But it does represent real evolutionary progress to advance from the fetish fear of a savage chief’s fingernail trimmings to the adoration of a superb collection of letters, laws, legends, allegories, myths, poems, and chronicles which, after all, reflect the winnowed moral wisdom of many centuries, at least up to the time and event of their being assembled as a “sacred book.”
But anyway, yeah, many of those Old Testament stories were meant to inspire. They’re not all literally true . . . more like allegories. And apparently, that’s a real improvement in the history of religion.
When I think about the OT authors of these stories I cannot help but consider they were indeed very wise people. I try to imagine if on the one hand they really desired to put forward the supernatural idea that a very literal interpretation would bring or if they used the story to get people thinking about deeper meanings like quoted above that Jesus stated about Jonah, or perhaps both?
I believe they realized that some people would be drawn and taken in by the supernatural and the story would benefit them in some way where others would use their minds to find the intended deeper meanings and find ways to use those meanings to progress personally or socially.
The supernatural aspect of the OT always turned me off but it certainly hung on for centuries to many people.
nelsong wrote: The supernatural aspect of the OT always turned me off but it certainly hung on for centuries to many people.You’re not alone. I think that is because people are growing spiritually, believe it or not. TUB states that humans have a built in propensity toward mystery and fear which have always been religious stimuli. Many mysteries are now falling away due to science, although fear is lagging behind (armageddon and global warming still scare the crap out of people). So, perhaps we’re getting wiser and the old things no longer have their grip on us. That being said, something has to take its place. Right now we’re treading water, I think. The things that were once holy are no longer holy, and we are supposed to modify our religious reflex toward reverence and respect. It’s actually kinda neat if you look at it with the long viewer. But what do you think they mean by saying, “conditioned by remorse and repentance” in this quote:
92:1.4 Mystery and power have always stimulated religious feelings and fears, while emotion has ever functioned as a powerful conditioning factor in their development. Fear has always been the basic religious stimulus. Fear fashions the gods of evolutionary religion and motivates the religious ritual of the primitive believers. As civilization advances, fear becomes modified by reverence, admiration, respect, and sympathy and is then further conditioned by remorse and repentance.
Possibly they mean that reverence, admiration, respect, and sympathy require their own checks and balances in order for real progress of civilization to happen. Remorse can be the sign that we have reflected on what it was that we have revered, admired, respected and had sympathy for and repentance is the sign that we have truthfully reflected on and realized any misdirection of the former and redirected those modified fears for the better??? IE: The Rolling Stones “sympathy for the devil”
Ah, so you’re saying remorse and repentance for all the mistakes that evolutionary religion has made in the name of God? Yeah, that sounds like it might be it, or at least close to what they’re talking about. When I read the Old Testament stories I feel some remorse for human beings doing, thinking and saying some of the things recorded there. Repentance, not so much. I don’t feel responsible personally for any of that, so I guess they’re talking about civilization as a whole.
I think the Jewish civilization must have had some remorse over the idea of child sacrifice because they obviously rewrote the story of rebuilding the walls of Jericho to make it look like it didn’t happen, that the children died of some natural cause. I guess that is a form of repentance, rewriting history to cover up the sins of the past. I don’t think we can get away with that in modern times though. We have to face the facts that some parts of the world’s religions are not all that great. Fess up to it and move on. I can think of scores of things right off the top of my head that aren’t worthy of respect and should be rued.
I am thinking that remorse is not necessarily analogous to feeling sorry, its more like recognizing error, being misled. And followed by repentance, I see it as a way of saying I not only recognized my error, I am doing something to change things. Akin to growth. Just saying Im sorry isn’t enough. Burying your sins is in building foundations not enough.
It makes me think of Adam and Eve being told they were in default, and not rebellion. They must have done something similar to remorse and repent because they took their licks, got on as human beings for a few hundred years, recieved adjusters, went thought the Morontia worlds and got on with their assention plan and now serving here on Urantia in a trusted position if memory serves. Id say they grew, likely more than they would have had they not been lookin for that shortcut that is so easy to default into embracing. IMHO
Now Im wondering about the adam eve narration in the OT and how to see it as metaphoric. We were told humans were perfect until eves default then the human race fell from grace. TUB tells us that perfection is our goal and always has been. My response to the concept of being born perfect is the same supernatural thing.
G’night all,
What a nice “résumé” Nelsong about our Adamic parents.
I’am proud to be their offspring. They set to use a good, very good example of courage and determination toward Our Father. Making mistakes is the lot of an imperfect creation. Uplifting Adamic’s example for Nebadon universe. Making confuses misapplications result of ignorances and free will décisions. To keep the direction “keep the allegiance” to Our Father whatever happens in this time/space Universe.
92:0.1 MAN possessed a religion of natural origin as a part of his evolutionary experience long before any systematic revelations were made on Urantia. But this religion of natural origin was, in itself, the product of man’s superanimal endowments. Evolutionary religion arose slowly throughout the millenniums of mankind’s experiential career through the ministry of the following influences operating within, and impinging upon, savage, barbarian, and civilized man: 1. The adjutant of worship , 2. The adjutant of wisdom, 3. The Holy Spirit … 92:0.5 … The co-ordinate functioning of these three divine ministrations is quite sufficient to initiate and prosecute the growth of evolutionary religion. These influences are later augmented by Thought Adjusters, seraphim, and the Spirit of Truth, all of which accelerate the rate of religious development. These agencies have long functioned on Urantia, and they will continue here as long as this planet remains an inhabited sphere. Much of the potential of these divine agencies has never yet had opportunity for expression; much will be revealed in the ages to come as mortal religion ascends, level by level, toward the supernal heights of morontia value and spirit truth.
86:6.7 With the emergence of these concepts, there was initiated the long and wasteful struggle to appease the ever-displeased spirits, the slavish bondage to evolutionary religious fear, that long waste of human effort upon tombs, temples, sacrifices, and priesthoods. It was a terrible and frightful price to pay, but it was worth all it cost, for man therein achieved a natural consciousness of relative right and wrong; human ethics was born!
What a Divine’s Plans of Wisdom and Love.
… your’s brotherly
andré
I think we’ve exhausted the topic that I posted, though I find this discussion interesting. An idea is to start a series of topics regarding the ub and, say, the bible, or certain portions of it, like I did with this one.
An idea for the Adam Eve question would be “Adam and Eve, the Urantia Book and the Bible” But that is just an idea.
I think the Jewish civilization must have had some remorse over the idea of child sacrifice because they obviously rewrote the story of rebuilding the walls of Jericho to make it look like it didn’t happen, that the children died of some natural cause.
Yes, and what about Passover? Isn’t it interesting that the Jewish story of the passing over of one’s house by the Angel of Death, because of the blood of the sacrificial lamb being placed on the door post, is actually a rewriting of the endeavor of Moses to get the people to stop killing there children! Through the traditions of Melchizedek passed down through his mother’s family, Moses was obviously aware of the advent of the coming Son, and if the Hebrews where to succeed in being host to the incarnate Creator Son, they needed to stop the ritualistic killing of their first born.
It appears it was more agreeable for the leaders of the Jews to weave the truth of what actually happened into a story of the miraculous defeat of the inferior gods of the Egyptians. An allegory of superiority, of being chosen perhaps, and then blame the guilt of their murderous, self-serving child killing ways on the power of their god: “the Angel of Death”
Occasionally this forum logs you off without warning in the middle of creating a post, so when you hit the submit button, you find that you have to log in again and all your writing has been annihilated. I’ve been burned so many times by that, I can’t tell you. The only way to deal with it is to always copy your post before hitting the submit button. I have spent hours and hours on stuff that has just vanished into cyberspace. It’s beyond frustrating. It’s maddening. But don’t get me started. Just highlight, hit command-C, then submit. After a while it becomes reflexive.
Hi all,
This is my 2nd post here, and I was just doing research on Andre Traversa, since a friend of mine just posted his ‘testimony’ video on our UB thread at Theologyonline.com (TOL). So here I am :) – I’ve found this discussion by googling more info. about the particular verse in 1 Kings and the UB passage that Andre had ‘issues’ with,….and not sure if the ‘paradox’ has been resolved. You’ve brought a lot of good points on it, and perhaps its one of those mysterious cross-stitched translation issues, which could go either way or any number of ways. I guess a few more good goes at it could be had.
It seems like the UB is just recognizing or stating that the record was portrayed as being “according to the word of the Lord”,…this doesn’t mean the Universal Father was the ‘God’ who was doing the approving, but that the religious belief, custom or assumption of the so called ‘curse’ pronounced by Joshua, was the ‘word of the Lord’, since Joshua was apparently speaking for the Lord. Various bible translations of 1 Kings 16:34 below – note that the recent paraphrased VOICE bible version at the end of this list is quite telling about its interpretation of these being child sacrifices. Most standard bible commentaries do not mention this.
34 In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho. He laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun. – 1 Kings 16:34 ESV
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34 In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho. He laid its foundation with Abiram his firstborn, and with his youngest son Segub he set up its gates, according to the word of the Lord, which He had spoken through Joshua the son of Nun. – New King James Version (NKJV)
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34 In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundations with the loss of Abiram his firstborn, and set up its gates with the loss of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which He spoke by Joshua the son of Nun. – New American Standard Bible (NASB)
34 During Ahab’s reign, Hiel the Bethelite rebuilt Jericho. As he put down its foundations, he buried his firstborn, Abiram, beneath them.
Following the common pagan practice of burying children beneath cities to ensure favor from the gods, Hiel fulfills the expectation set by Joshua for anyone who rebuilds Jericho.
As he raised its gates, he buried his youngest son, Segub, beneath them, thinking this would ward off evil. This all happened just as the Eternal One said it would through the message he gave through Joshua, Nun’s son.
-The VOICE
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I would also like to further substantiate child sacrifice within building structures in this article here (pdf file). So, this is a very interesting study :)
So the UB passage on this –
89:6.6 A petty king in Palestine. in building the walls of Jericho,” laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub.” At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city’s gates, but his action is also recorded as being “according to the word of the Lord.” Moses had forbidden these foundation sacrifices, but the Israelites reverted to them soon after his death.
Is just claiming the 2 sons were sacrificied in the manner of ‘putting them into the walls’, they being incorporated into the building somehow, yet the Bible does not give the graphic details on how they died beyond the strange grammatical structure of the passage. It is the text’s claim itself that this happened by the ‘word of the Lord’ thru the prophet Joshua,…so IT assumes the curse was inspired, since Joshua was speaking the ‘word of the Lord’, – THIS IS ALL THE UB IS REFERRING TO – that the text itself is claiming that this was ‘according to the word of the Lord given to Joshua’ – that’s it! (this is hardly something to toss out both the baby and baby water over). Anyways,….I hope I constructing my first post here ok, as I’m usually used to forums that have a ‘preview mode’ so I can ‘edit/tailor’ my post before dispatching it :) – hope it comes out right, and my commentary helps elucidate anything already or not shared on the subject.
– ok, at least there is an ‘edit’ mode after you post lol – just tried to make some changes…..Welcome Freelight,
THIS IS ALL THE UB IS REFERRING TO: synonymes: cite, speak about, speak of.
According to the old testament … written by mens and retranscript in favor of humans’s perspectives. Thats is one of many reasons Urantia book comes to reveal facts, history long before altered or lost.
You’re right Freelight about how interesting it is to inquire and search for truths. You seems animated by curiosity and challenging quest to find out answers to your questions.
Keep going bro’
Welcome Freelight, THIS IS ALL THE UB IS REFERRING TO: synonymes: cite, speak about, speak of. According to the old testament … written by mens and retranscript in favor of humans’s perspectives. Thats is one of many reasons Urantia book comes to reveal facts, history long before altered or lost. You’re right Freelight about how interesting it is to inquire and search for truths. You seems animated by curiosity and challenging quest to find out answers to your questions. Keep going bro’
Thanks Andre,
I had to look deeper into this seeming quandary, but its not really anything to lose your faith over. Also, I found Andre Traversa’s Part 2 of his testimony, concerning this very passage, and left our discussion thread link on it in my response :) – https://www.facebook.com/notes/agustin-astacio/ex-urantia-the-andre-traversa-story-part-two/10151499281675678 (I’m Paul Purcell, for any who like to connect on facebook)
This particular Andre (I gather its not you
), also has problems with the blood atonement stance in the UB, and was teetering back n forth between the bible and the UB for some years, before he just bagged it altogether,….and tossed it into the dumpster! I’m very eclectic, more of a theosophist, Gnostic, Spiritualist, Soul-pioneer type,….so pretty liberal. My commentary and support on the UB thread at TOL is just part of my enthusiasm of my study of some portions of it over the years (I was introduced to the UB in the mid 90’s), so I hold court there, taking on a lot of ‘Bible-Only’ folks, who discount it with the usual apologetics and polemics dished out. I was active on UBRON some years back, but faded out, no longer active. Im on 1 or 2 UB groups on Facebook, dabbled a bit on Urantia Unity, but that’s about it. Nice to have some interaction here in a little more ‘official’ Urantia venue,….wow, I feel a bit ‘formalized’.Awesome as the UB is, there are some portions that interest me a whole lot, and some that I might deem unuseful or even entirely human in origin,…this does not mean I discount the whole revelation as a whole, but I guard against the same fundamentalist mentality some Christians have over the ‘inerrancy’ or ‘infallibility’ of the Bible, understanding that not even the UB claims ‘inerrancy’, but presents itself as the latest epochal revelation to the planet, but some parts like the science will have to be “updated” in the years to come as new scientific facts are discovered. Ontop of that, the revelators used human source material upon which to build, expand or enhance certain concepts and principles, and while this will serve our progressive evolution,…there still is the advance of ‘progressive revelation’ so even our current paradigms may be uplifted and extended towards a more perfect comprehension, as long as there is room for learning, growth, adaptation, progress. And so the wheels of creation continue onward!
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