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I have a question. I am not the only one with this question as I came across one former Urantia Book show radio hoast with this same question when I tried to research it online.
He returned to conservative Christianity largely because he couldn’t find the answer to this question from the ub community. When he asked the ub community, (I’m paraphrasing here) the question was shrugged off as unimportant. He got to the point that he said enough was enough and dumped his belief in the ub largely as a result of not finding the answer to this question from the ub community, but instead, finding the answer from a Christian friend of his. I can’t remember his name but he was the hoast of Cosmic Citizen, an ub radio show on blog talk. I came across his testamony on Google, I can’t remember what I typed in, and the question has fascinated me ever sense. OPAD mentions it, but no comments are given to explain it. I thought I’d post the rellavent quotes and see what you all think?
KJV Joshua {6:26} “And Joshua adjured [them] at
that time, saying, Cursed [be] the man before the LORD, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in
his firstborn, and in his youngest [son] shall he set up the gates of
it.”
KJV 1 Kings {16:34} “In his days did Hiel the Bethelite build Jericho: he laid
the foundation thereof in Abiram his firstborn, and set up the gates
thereof in his youngest [son] Segub, according to the word of the LORD,
which he spake by Joshua the son of Nun.”The Urantia Book 89:6.6 (981.3) “A petty king in Palestine, in building the walls of Jericho, “laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub.” At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city’s gates, but his action is also recorded as being “according to the word of the Lord.” Moses had forbidden these foundation sacrifices, but the Israelites reverted to them soon after his death.”
Me again. As I said, I have tried to research this question ever sense I read this guys’ story. I have had no luck in my research. The few times I have found references to it, the ub paragraph and the rellavent bible quotes are mentioned, but no attempt is made to explain them.
I’m wondering what the question is too. Foundation sacrifices were real. There is archeological evidence for the practice going all the way back to neolithic times. Apparently it was done to persuade the gods to protect buildings. Child sacrifice was widespread. I also read that human and animal skeletons were used in foundations to improve acoustics within buildings.
In the sanctuary in Gezer were found two burnt skeletons of six-year-old children and the skulls of two adolescents that had been sawn in two. At Meggido a girl of fifteen had been killed and buried in the foundations of a large structure. Excavations show that the practice of interring children under new buildings was widespread and some were evidently buried alive. (Davies, Nigel. Human Sacrifice in History and Today. New York: William Morrow and Co., 1981.)
His question had to do with the phrase “according to the word of the lord.” He said that the ub made it look like God sanctioned human sacrifice in this instance and the Bible clearly said that the one who rebuilt the wall would be cursed. He said that the bible didn’t say that the sons were sacrificed and that they could have died of anything. He couldn’t reconsyle the two accounts.
Chuck…I simply cannot imagine such a misunderstanding by any serious or seasoned student of the UB and neither can I even believe no other student could not explain this. Very strange indeed.
I wondered about your post and where you got it because the quotation marks at the beginning and end of the text do not exist as shown below. The quotation marks within any text means that those words are from another source and a human source – not written by the author but quoted by the author…in this case, obviously a Biblical writer (or editor). It is an unattributed quote for which attribution is known and published…as you so posted.
89:6.4 (981.1) In olden times, when a new building of any importance was started, it was customary to slay a human being as a “foundation sacrifice.” This provided a ghost spirit to watch over and protect the structure. When the Chinese made ready to cast a bell, custom decreed the sacrifice of at least one maiden for the purpose of improving the tone of the bell; the girl chosen was thrown alive into the molten metal.
89:6.5 (981.2) It was long the practice of many groups to build slaves alive into important walls. In later times the northern European tribes substituted the walling in of the shadow of a passerby for this custom of entombing living persons in the walls of new buildings. The Chinese buried in a wall those workmen who died while constructing it.
89:6.6 (981.3) A petty king in Palestine, in building the walls of Jericho, “laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub.” At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city’s gates, but his action is also recorded as being “according to the word of the Lord.” Moses had forbidden these foundation sacrifices, but the Israelites reverted to them soon after his death. The twentieth-century ceremony of depositing trinkets and keepsakes in the cornerstone of a new building is reminiscent of the primitive foundation sacrifices.
Sorry about the quotes. I should have explained why I did that. I’m not sure how the block quotes work so I inserted them. As for being unable to explain the difference, this guy was a student of the ub for 10 years. He wanted to find out why the Bible said that anyone who built the walls would be cursed “according to the word of the lord” and the ub appeared, to him at least, to make it look as if God approved of the sacrifice. By the way, his name is Andray Traversa. I’m not sure if I got the spelling right. Try googleing him along with urantia or Christian and see if you can find the story if you want more details.
The phrase “according to the word of the Lord”means that the petty king in Palestine was reverting to old pagan beliefs concerning what they thought the gods demanded, rather than abiding by the more enlightened teachings of Moses. I agree with Bradly that there is nothing to confuse there. It’s rather straightforward and rather well documented by historians.
It should also be noted that TUB does not recommend cursing anything or anyone. Cursing is a pagan practice which is described in TUB as part of human history, but it is not condoned in any way.
The following is taken directly from Ex-Urantia “The Andre Traversa Story” Part Two. For the entire story, google his name plus Urantia. That’s how I found it. I’m putting the entire section that I coppied in quotes. Note that he does put the Bible in quotes and, I think, the ub as well. I hope this explains my question. It was my objection to the ub when I first read it as well, but I found more problems with the Bible than the ub. Anyway, here is the section I coppied. I used Notepad, so the formatting might be screwed up.
“Ironically, one person suggested that I read a UB paper that contained the smoking gun that would end my love affair with this false teaching once and for all. The paper is called “Sin, Sacrifice and Atonement,” and the gist of it is that Christian teachings about original sin and substitutionary atonement are just relics of ancient pagan superstitions which held that the gods could only be appeased by the sight of blood. An obscure passage in this paper led me to an obscure passage in Scripture, and I began to do some investigative work.
It should be noted that I had accepted, for a long time, that the UB wasn’t perfect. It didn’t claim to be infallible, and even admitted to using human sources. So I was willing to accept errors, oversights, and a few mistakes here and there. But what I found here was more than that; it was an overt misrepresentation of Scripture. In other words, it was an act of deception, a lie. In order to understand the nature of this deception, it is necessary to look at two passages of Scripture.The first is 1 Kings 16:34. In this passage, we are told of a king who rebuilt Jericho. “In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundations with the loss of Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates with the loss of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.” Here we are told that King Hiel built Jericho, and lost his two sons in the process. We are also told that this was “according to the Word of the Lord which He spoke by Joshua son of Nun.” And just what was this word of the Lord that Joshua spoke?
The answer is in Joshua; specifically, Joshua 6:26. In this verse, Joshua speaks prophetically saying, “Cursed before the Lord is the man who rises up and builds this city Jericho; with the loss of his first-born he shall lay its foundation, and with the loss of his youngest son he shall set up its gates.” So, the curse of God upon the man who builds Jericho was fulfilled in 1 Kings 16:34. Why would God curse a man who tries to rebuild Jericho? Because God gave Jericho into the hands of the Israelites as a gift when He brought down the walls. The Jews did not take Jericho from the Canaanites by their own power; rather, God gave it to them by His power and His grace, its ruins forever serving as evidence of God’s judgment on the evil Canaanites. God had conquered the land of Canaan and had given it to the Israelites as a gift. Rebuilding Jericho was a slap in the face to God.
Now let’s look at how the UB distorts this passage for its own purposes. In Paper 89, titled “Sin, Sacrifice and Atonement,” the UB rehashes a lot of 1930s anthropology in its review of the history of blood sacrifice, both animal and human. In Section, 6, paragraphs 5 and 6, the UB discusses an ancient practice called a foundation sacrifice. The UB rightly points out that foundation sacrifices were commonly performed at the erection of new buildings, and that these sacrifices were often human, and even included putting slaves alive into city walls.
In Section 6, paragraph 6, the UB records the incident with King Hiel and the loss of his two sons while rebuilding Jericho. The book claims that Hiel deliberately sacrificed both his sons, one in the foundations, and the other in the city gates:
“A petty king in Palestine, in building the walls of Jericho, ‘laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub.’ At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city’s gates, but his action is also recorded as being ‘according to the word of the Lord.’” (89:6.6)
The UB states that the Scripture record of this event indicated that this was done “according to the Word of the Lord.” Note the glaring omission in this passage. There is no mention of the “word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.” Here the UB is implying two things. One, that the loss of Hiel’s two sons was actually an example of a foundation sacrifice, and two, that the Hebrew Bible gives divine sanction to this sacrifice, stating that it was done “according to the Word of the Lord.” So, not only did Hiel offer his two sons as foundation sacrifices, but according to the UB, the Old Testament writer has God endorsing it.
As I’ve shown above, there is no evidence that this passage refers to a human sacrifice–none at all. All the evidence points to Joshua’s prophecy being fulfilled, and Hiel being cursed with the loss of his two sons. Who knows how they died; they could have died in construction accidents, or from some sort of plague or disease. But there is no evidence that this is a human sacrifice. And note that the UB has to leave out the part which refers to Joshua in order to mislead its readers.
Even while immersed in the UB, I used to complain about the plague of biblical illiteracy among its readers. I would harp constantly that the UB quoted the Bible more than any other book, and that in order to understand the UB you need to understand the Bible. Well, interestingly, there is a book called the Paramony, which gives UB readers all the relevant Bible passages that parallel those in the UB. The problem is that most UB readers are so ignorant of Scripture and so entranced by the UB that looking up these passages alone won’t necessarily do them much good if they don’t know the context. Thanks to my good friend Don Veinot of Midwest Christian Outreach, I was able to discover the true meaning of this passage. It was he who led me to Joshua 6:26, where I found the context of this passage. At that point, I was already having second thoughts about the UB, and I longed for the peace I knew as a born-again believer. I had ggone back and forth before, but this was the final nail in the coffin for the UB. To me, this distortion of Scripture could only be deliberate, not just an oversight.
Of course, I asked some UB readers I respected for a response to my concerns, but I got no satisfactory answers. To most of them, my objections were just a quibble, and really didn’t mean anything. One person, considered a foremost authority on the UB, reminded me that much of Scripture was distorted. You see, the UB claims that the OT was rewritten during the Babylonian captivity as a propaganda tool to encourage a demoralized Jewish people. So, the Bible apparently idealizes Israel’s history, and whitewashes Israel’s past, and might deny that the Jews practiced any kind of human sacrifice. But there are two problems with this explanation. First, where is the evidence that the priests in Babylon rewrote the OT? I have yet to find any scholarly evidence to support this claim. Was I supposed to just accept it at face value as “revelation,” just because it was in the Urantia Book?
And secondly, the Bible doesn’t idealize Israel’s history at all; the Scripture record is rife with accounts of Israel’s sin, including the practice of human sacrifice. And by the way, this practice is always condemned in Scripture, and occurs in Israel only when the Jews whore after the pagan gods of the surrounding peoples; it is never condoned by the God of Scripture. Even while a UB reader, I often had doubts about the authenticity of the text, and was frequently drawn back to the Bible. In most instances, I was able to go to other UB readers for reassurances, and my doubts would be soothed for a while. But in this case, my fellow UB readers couldn’t provide me with any credible answers. And with that, I finally let go of the Urantia Book and came back home to the Lord.”
The following is taken directly . . . .
Thanks Chuck.
I have a dear friend whom I invited to and who attended my first-ever study group at my home in January of 1991. She did not continue with study group when she found out the teachings of the UB do not support reincarnation. Many times over the years she has asked me if I am still reading it. She is the one who brings the subject up! She told me she reads it once in a while. Several years ago she told me she thought there was really something to this book. She said, “I think you’ve really got something here.” I invited her to attend again. She attended, but told me later it didn’t fit in with her beliefs (that she has lived other lives) and once again she quit coming.
Your welcome Mara. The friend that you spoke of gave as her answer “That’s not what I believe.” This guy that I quoted though has objective evidence that he sites, mainly the same passages that I sited.
As I said before, this passage gave me problems when I first read the ub. Then again, it also inspired me to read the Bible for the first time. I thought that before I explored someone elses faith on a deeper level I should explore my own. In the end, I had more objections to what the Bible said than what the UB said. I still have questions though. I’m hoping to get a better answer than he got as well. He seemed to get the same answer from the UB community that some ub students accuse Christians of giving, “just believe it.” I’m hoping to get a better answer than that. While I am a ub believer, I am also in a community that values Bible study as much as I value ub study. That is to say, they study the Bible deeply on a regular basis. They to, however, have given me the “Just believe it” answer as well though.
195:5:2 Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed.
195:5:2 Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed.
195:5:2 Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed.
195:5:2 Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed.
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