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No superhuman beings brought down Jericho. The whole story is a myth according to historians. From wikipedia:
In the face of the archaeological evidence, the biblical story of the fall of Jericho “cannot have been founded on genuine historical sources”. Almost all scholars agree that the book of Joshua holds little of historical value. It was written by authors far removed from the times it depicts, and was intended to illustrate a theological scheme in which Israel and her leaders are judged by their obedience to the teachings and laws (the covenant) set down in the book of Deuteronomy, rather than as history in the modern sense. The story of Jericho, and the conquest generally, probably represents the nationalist propaganda of the kings of Judah and their claims to the territory of the Kingdom of Israel after 722 BCE; these chapters were later incorporated into an early form of Joshua written late in the reign of king Josiah (reigned 640–609 BCE), and the book was revised and completed after the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians in 586, and possibly after the return from the Babylonian exile in 538. The combination of archaeological evidence and analysis of the composition history and theological purposes of the Book of Joshua lies behind the judgement of archaeologist William G. Dever that the battle of Jericho “seems invented out of whole cloth.”
I still don’t understand what the issue is here. Is it about TUB saying that Joshua, speaking for God, put a curse on Jericho and that is why Hiel had to sacrifice his sons during the rebuilding of the wall? Or, is it that TUB is saying that Joshua, speaking for God, told Hiel to sacrifice his sons? Or is it the fact that TUB fails to mention Joshua at all?
Chances are that originally the words were written in scripture just as they appear in TUB. It makes sense to me that burying children alive “according to the word of the Lord” of Baal, was actually written out of the scriptures and changed to what it is today in order to make it look as though the children were lost because of a curse by Joshua who was channeling God.
Joshua’s curse reflects the belief that Jericho was a symbol of God’s victory over the heathens in favor of his chosen people and was therefore sacred. The fact that it was taken over by Baal worshipers when Ahab was king of Israel is an embarrassment. Of course the writer wanted to make it look like God took revenge on Hiel, a Baal worshipper, for denigrating God’s power and attempting to rebuild the walls he tore down for the Israelites, his chosen ones. The whole thing is one big myth and TUB does a good job of revealing it for what it is. God, nor any other superhuman being, tore down the walls of Jericho. Neither did God get angry and kill children. The whole thing is beyond silly.
His question had to do with the phrase “according to the word of the lord.” He said that the ub made it look like God sanctioned human sacrifice in this instance and the Bible clearly said that the one who rebuilt the wall would be cursed. He said that the bible didn’t say that the sons were sacrificed and that they could have died of anything. He couldn’t reconsyle the two accounts.
chucksmith1982: I really don’t understand why there should be a question at all regarding the way the text is presented in the UB?
(981.3) 89:6.6 A petty king in Palestine, in building the walls of Jericho, “laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub.” At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city’s gates, but his action is also recorded as being “according to the word of the Lord.” Moses had forbidden these foundation sacrifices, but the Israelites reverted to them soon after his death. The twentieth-century ceremony of depositing trinkets and keepsakes in the cornerstone of a new building is reminiscent of the primitive foundation sacrifices.
It seems that in this paragraph, which is presenting this information as an example of the “Evolution of Human Sacrifice”, it seems apparent that by the use of “but his action is also recorded as being”, “according to the word of the Lord”, is merely an indication that it was recorded, in this case, in the Bible, that this action was once performed as having been a practice which was forbidden by Moses. It also indicates that “the Israelites reverted” back to these practices for what ever reason but does not indicate that it was directly because to was “according to the word of the Lord.”
I see no reason why this narration would indicate that the UB indicates that this practice was ever directed by “the Lord”?
I’m wondering what the problem is with “He couldn’t reconsyle the two accounts.” Which two actions specifically, as noted in Joshua 6? If so, one must read those verses in the Bible using the story line leading into each presentation?
If I’m missing something here, please present additional detail as to why there should be any question at all as to this narration?
The whole problem has to do with, as someone else mentioned, the curse. According to what Aundray said, and according to Christian belief, and I suppose Jewish belief as well, After the distruction of Jerico by God Joshua cursed the one who should rebuild this city according to God’s command with the loss of both his oldest and youngest sons. If it wasn’t by God’s command, it could be argued that inspiration played a part I suppose. Anyway, the ub doesn’t mention that. Aundray, and most serious Bible students I know view/would view the omission of the part about the curse and I forget the parts that are left out of the ub passage, as evidence of misleading on the part of the ub. The only insight I can give you here is to suggest that you read the entirety of Aundrays’ story. It will give you an insight into the mind of a conservative Christian and would perhaps answer any questions that you have as to why he rejected, and those that hold his mindset, would reject the ub. On the surface it appears that he would have a valid and objective argument. When I first read the ub, and this was before I knew anything about Aundray, I knew enough about the Bible that I raised the same objection myself.
I was still curious about the ub, and so I decided that if I was ggoing to explore someone elses faith I should explore my own first. Thus I read completely the Bible for the first time. By the time I finished with it though, if it wasn’t for my reading of the ub, I would have rejected God. I however, decided upon a program of Bible reading that used no outside sources. I didn’t consult any commentaries, I just let the text speak for itself. Now, as I said, I’m going to do an actual through the bible bible study wich will study virtually every verse. I hope to gain not only biblical knowledge so that I may relate better to Christians, but I also hope to gain a better understanding of my former faith.
Chuck – thanks for persevering in your exploration! As I see it, your experience illuminates the issue faced by both the “Angels of the Churches” and the “seraphim of progress“. And why a culture’s religious sensibilities must be evolved carefully. And slowly. Personally, I had an excellent grounding in the 4th epochal revelation before meeting the 5th, so my transition (while stormy) was also quite rapid.
Seeing cultural evolution in context helps me to appreciate the situation of those still engaged with the 3rd epochal revelation, i.e. that “the one true god” is trustworthy (plus all powerful, all merciful, all knowing, etc.). Clearly, transition to Urantia’s next age is a long-term project, requiring much love and wisdom.
Nigel
People fear the truth for what it might do to them. But isn’t the Old Testament God so much more fearful than the truth? Oh wait . . . not if you are one of the chosen people. The Old Testament God does ferocious things to protect the chosen people, so in that case, I guess he’s a good guy and maybe worth hanging on to.
I think one of the reasons some people have such a hard time embracing revelation, or truth, is because it rips away the security blanket of erroneous thinking. This is dangerous if it leaves a gaping hole, remembering that all thought is just scaffolding. Without some kind of replacement scaffolding, there is nothing to hold onto. That is why Jesus said to never take things out of the heart of men, only put the truth in. I think people reject TUB when they don’t have sufficient infrastructure in their scaffolding to withstand the holes of truth often leaves them with. In this case, rather than continue to explain the truth to this person, I would keep reiterating the fact that TUB teaches us that God is compassionate and loving to all people, that he does not curse some and favor others, that he loves everyone, all comers. Eventually, that truth should crowd out error.
141:6:2 Simon, Simon, how many times have I instructed you to refrain from all efforts to take something out of the hearts of those who seek salvation? How often have I told you to labor only to put something into these hungry souls? Lead men into the kingdom, and the great and living truths of the kingdom will presently drive out all serious error.
chuck – Best wishes in your reading, research, and study of the Bible. As one who was raised and baptized in a fundamentalist Bible church, I find Andre’s claims that most UB students lack familiarity with the Bible to be lacking in fact. I’ve met many a Biblical scholar and student in our community – both Christian and Jewish – who have long treasured and studied the Good Book.
I would suggest a red-letter version of the NT to begin your quest for understanding. One thing I discovered as a child of 11-12 was how contradictory was both the OT and the letters/doctrines of Paul to the Jesusonian gospel found within the sayings, teachings, parables, and other stories of Jesus.
The challenge for my Christian friends is trying to reconcile the gospel OF Jesus and the so called gospel ABOUT Jesus. My early church taught that every word in the Bible was the word OF God, and this brought great confusion to a devoted Bible student like me even before I was a teen age Preacher Boy! Is it eye for an eye? or turn the other cheek? Is God angry and vengeful? or loving and merciful? Where did the children of Adam and Eve find those wives? where did the land of Nod come from? Aren’t dinosaurs and fossils and geological history and astronomical observances indicative that evolution IS a creation process? How did science and religion get so disconnected when there is obviously one reality for discovery, observation, origin, source, and order?
When I began researching how Hebrew scholars view their records and books of the law, etc., I discovered that my fundamentalist Christian believers had a far more rigid and narrow belief system about the OT than the people whose history is recorded therein. An interesting perplexion at the time and still today.
I came to view such fundamentalism as blind, corrupt, bankrupt, and based on fear rather than being based upon the actual good news Jesus delivered that we are all beloved children of paternal Creator in one family (kingdom) founded in and ruled by love! I studied and tried and tried….but I could not find this blessed truth and fact much anywhere in the Bible. It is in there. But there’s lots of thorns on that rose bush!!
Again …..best wishes!! I hope the Urantia Book might continue to inspire your hope and faith and trust in this friendly universe!
Bradly = )
Thanks Bradly! I appreciate your words.
Bonita said something earlier that I’d like to address. She called the story of Jerico ridiculous. To that I have to add this. Nonbelievers call the way that the ub was given to us ridiculous. Be carefull of using that word, particually if it involves belief.
To those such as Bradly who have made a study of the Bible, what do you think of this passage? How is the biblical account to be interpreted from a strictly biblical view? An ub view?
Nigel, you said “the one true god” is trustworthy (plus all powerful, all merciful, all knowing, etc.) Are you saying that this is not true? Doesn’t the Universal Father indeed know all? And what do you mean when you call that viewpoint the third revelation?
Bonita, you appear to be dodging the issue. Error (regardless if it is in the ub or the bible) must be explained in order to be clarified and the truth found. The reasons that the ub is rejected are many fold. Some people can’t deal with the “science fiction” elimant of the ub. some people find passages like the ones that I sited for this discussion and see the error that I mentioned. For others it may be different passages sited but the same conclusion. For some it is the science mentioned in the ub. For others it may be the apparently racest language in the ub. As ub believers, we must have answers other than the one Bonita gave. In essence, she said, “Just keep mentioning the truths in the ub and the perceived errors won’t matter to the person.” If I’m reading a book on truth and I find a provable error in the book it is my duty to find out all I can about that error. Why was it made? Can it be corrected in the next edition of the book if the author is contacted? Can the author explain the error in such a way that I can figure out why he made it? These questions can not be answered in reference to the ub. All we can do is conjecture. So, fellow ub believers, start conjecturing! And be sure to be able to back up your arguments with concrete evidence if possible.
For the sake of argument, imagine that I am a Bible believer who has just read the UB. This is true of many of the ub students out there or so it appears. How would you convince me, if I came to you and sited these passages, that the ub was valid? That it was for me? Remember, in this sanereo, I am looking critically at the sited passages. On the surface, I see the error in the passages here. What is your answer as believers in the text? And remember, I want objective answers, not the subjective answers I’ve been getting so far! And I, as this new potential convert, will not let you dodge the issue either!
chucksmith1982 wrote: Bonita, you appear to be dodging the issue.I don’t think so. I appear to be the only one who has presented any research on the topic including several wikipedia articles. I’ve addressed the issue thoroughly and see no error at all. I think the error you are seeing is that TUB does not quote the modern Bible which has been rewritten and retranslated many times over.
chucksmith1982 wrote: Error (regardless if it is in the ub or the bible) must be explained in order to be clarified and the truth found.First of all, there is no error in TUB. Second of all, I explained it several times. The original Bible story is a myth. TUB has revealed many of the Bible stories to be myths. It goes into great length to explain what really happened. It also explains that the Bible is neither history nor the word of God.
chucksmith1982 wrote: The reasons that the ub is rejected are many fold. Some people can’t deal with the “science fiction” elimant of the ub.The reason why many people reject the Bible is because they can’t deal with the science fiction element in it, also known as human fabricated myth. The walls of Jericho may have come down, but God did not tear them down. God did not bring a world wide flood. God did not create the world in seven days. God did not create Adam and Eve as the first humans.
chucksmith1982 wrote: In essence, she said, “Just keep mentioning the truths in the ub and the perceived errors won’t matter to the person.”I said to do that because it is following Jesus’ teaching. Do you have a problem with following Jesus’ teaching? If so, then even the Bible would not give you much direction. Are you saying that Jesus’ teaching is wrong?
chucksmith1982 wrote: This is true of many of the ub students out there or so it appears. How would you convince me, if I came to you and sited these passages, that the ub was valid?Here’s the problem Chuck. There is no reason to convince you of anything. Either you accept what is written in TUB or you don’t. No one can make you think anything you don’t want to think. If you’re hell bent on misunderstanding something, then nothing anyone says will change your misunderstanding. I personally do not come here to convince people of anything. That’s converting people. I do not want to convert you. TUB is a revelation. Either it opens your mind or it doesn’t. I cannot open your mind for you and no one else can do that either. You have to do it yourself. All I can do is share my understanding, which I have thoroughly done on this subject, and you have rejected it.
If you insist on believing that God punishes people, then nothing I say can change that. You have to discover the real God for yourself before you can let go of such an ancient (and ridiculous in my opinion) idea. Jesus told the story of Job to explain this in very thing great detail. The Old Testament God is God as he was understood by men thousands and thousands of years ago. They did not understand God very well, which is why they sacrificed their children to appease him. For heaven’s sake, do you really believe that God said this:
The Lord said to Moses, “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. Leviticus 21:16-20
Do you really believe that God would deny a dwarf, a cripple, a blind person or someone with damaged testicles to approach him? Come on man, didn’t Jesus heal these people and say they are all welcome and loved? The Old Testament God is not the real God; he is the God ancient primitive men thought he was. We have learned a lot more about the true nature of God from Jesus in the fourth epochal revelation. Now we have the fifth which goes into greater depth as to God’s true character. Either you like this new revelation of God or you like the one from thousands and thousands of years ago that came from the frightened and unenlightened minds of men long gone from this earth. It is your choice.
And how about this story about Elijah from the Bible:
And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And looking back, he saw them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord: and there came forth two bears out of the forest, and tore of them two and forty boys. And from thence he went to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria. 4 Kings 2:23-24
Do you really think that God would maul 42 kids to death for calling Elijah bald? Do you really think Elijah had the power to tell God what to do? Don’t you think that is a bit ridiculous? I do. I think it’s more than ridiculous; I think it’s hilarious.
chucksmith1982 wrote: And remember, I want objective answers, not the subjective answers I’ve been getting so far! And I, as this new potential convert, will not let you dodge the issue either!Whoa! A threat! Where’s your sword young man, we will duel to the death! You know something, I don’t want to convert you. I really don’t care what you believe, not one bit. So, do you want to study TUB or not? If not, stick with the Bible like many people do. It’s not my job, or anyone else’s job, to prove anything to you. You have to do that all by yourself. Revelation is something you have to find in your soul. None of us can put it there. The Spirit puts it there. None of us can make you see it either. That is your job, and your job alone, otherwise it would not qualify as a revelation. Get it?
Thanks for the platitude Van. I hope you directed that at Chuck, the one who is doing the threatening.
Can you imagine going to a Bible forum and making an announcement that the Bible is filled with errors and that you demand people prove to you that the Bible is right? And then, go on to threaten that you will not let them dodge issues, you want objective answers or else? I think you’d get your arse kicked off the forum in a nanosecond. Just sayin’ The chutzpah is stunning.
Hi Bonita,
You are one passionate gal! And that’s commendable.
I know you’ll agree with me that there are many who discover the Urantia Book and immediately realize, by thumbing (or now scrolling) through it — what it is.
The Spirit of Truth is strong in that moment and makes it obvious.
I have seen it time and time again, the reaction. It’s a lot to deal with. Some, by virtue of their experience, find it easy to wipe away all doubt and dive in. However, most, even though the spirit speaks loudly, hesitate. Ultimately, as you know, it doesn’t matter. In the end, it’ll work for the good of all. Albeit, there’s a certain inertia which tends to stall progress. We’ll encounter a point of critical mass eventually. Progress can’t be stopped. It’s futile to keep a finger in the dike.
Cheers!
I am passionate Van. It really irks me when people come here trying to convert members to something else (usually channeled nonsense), or in this case, demand members convert them. What kind of thinking is this? . . . Well, never mind. Don’t answer that. The last time I asked that question I got a poison pen letter from moderator 2.
But seriously, does anyone believe that TUB readers should go out into the world to make converts? Is it even possible? I think we’re meant to live the gospel, to share it with others. Sure, I love answering questions about TUB, but I will not try to prove it. It can’t be proven. Truth does not need proof. If it’s not true to you, then fahgettaboutit! Go do something else . . . follow some prophet you like better.
On the “other forum” there is a lot of argument as to whether TUB is being over analyzed, studied too much and picked apart. The quote about dismembering truth keeps coming up. Isn’t this exactly what trying to prove truth is all about? Truth cannot be proven objectively. Truth is subjective, and always will be. Truth is relative. Material facts are objective and material facts can be proven. I’m more than willing to pick apart material facts, like whether or not people buried their children alive in buildings to appease the gods.
Spiritual facts are more like truth-facts, like the truth-fact that God does not curse, or kill, or pick favorites. These truths require revelation, which is what we have in TUB and in Jesus who came before it. Either you accept that or you don’t. If you can’t accept it, fine. Move on to what you can accept. But picture a world that doesn’t accept this truth-fact: It was just recently that the spiritual leader of Iran said that earthquakes are caused by Western women revealing their cleavage, that this makes God angry and he shakes the earth. Well, maybe the women of Jericho were showing off their cleavage and that’s why God shook the walls down . . . ya gotta wonder. If that’s what you want to believe, then far be it for me to try to dissuade you otherwise. Now . . . let me see if I can find my push-up bra . . . .
chucksmith1982 wrote:
[CS] Nigel, you said “the one true god” is trustworthy (plus all powerful, all merciful, all knowing, etc.) Are you saying that this is not true? Doesn’t the Universal Father indeed know all? And what do you mean when you call that viewpoint the third revelation?
Hi Chuck – sorry, I should have been more clear! These papers present themselves ( see link 92:4.4 ) as the 5th revelation of epochal significance. The 4th is Jesus, the 3rd was by Melchizedek via Abraham.
In essence, the 3rd epochal revelation was simply that there is a Deity, that this Deity is all-powerful, all-merciful, all-knowing, etc. But above all, this “one true god” is Trustworthy. All we humans had to do was to trust, and to have faith that this was true.
The 4th epochal revelation (Jesus) is the truth-fact that this Deity is our personal father.
The 5th epochal revelation (these papers) fills in some of the details about “how” and “why”.
Hope my comment make more sense now!
Nigel
G’ day all,
Salut Chucksmith,
It’s not my job, or anyone else’s job, to prove anything to you. Bonita
Well perceived, post 22029. Your agitative, insistent reminder of ”responsbility” of Urantia’s readers. TUB revealed that our duty regards only each of us toward God , Our Father.
Faith is trust in God. There are those who trusts God and those who don’t.
If you look for answers go to Michael of Nebadon, asTruth Personified . John 14:6, UB 34:4.5
This bestowed Comforter is the spiritual force which ever draws all truth seekers towards Him who is the personification of truth in the local universe.
Hope Chucksmith, you find what you are looking for.
In brotherhood,
André
p.s. thanks Bonita
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