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Gene wrote: … doesnt soul growth imply religious experience?Okay, my formatting experience on this forum has just gotten exponentially worse making it almost impossible to respond with any delicacy. So I’m left with the challenge of being as succinct as possible. Suffice it to say that religious experience occurs whenever an individual chooses to do an unselfish act despite the urge to be selfish. You can’t have a religious experience without a relationship between two persons, human or divine. Soul growth is dependent upon mental expansion, in other words, increased ability to discover, recognize, interpret and choose the will of God, then act it out within the material life of the individual. Philosophy is the bridge between the outside and the inside world.Gene wrote: and it goes on to say that : the divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. . . . Soul growth – I don’t know. Philosophy is not really the highest and most spiritualized type of thinking is it?I’m guessing you’re wondering what spiritualized thinking has to do with philosophy. Spiritualized thinking is the type of thinking that has risen to the level of the soul; it’s super-thinking. First, we begin by organizing facts (science) about the physical world experience into idea-decisions with our material minds. Then, philosophy, aka wisdom, transforms these idea-decisions into practical and supernal ideals. Once philosophy has done its job, with help from the spirit of wisdom, these ideals rise to the level of the soul with help from the Holy Spirit, the supermind of the soul. Here the Adjuster combines and spiritizes them and makes them ready for action, with the help of the Spirit of Truth. You can read all about it at p 1112:3, 101:6.7.Gene wrote: im thinking that the most impressive or effective philosophy is more of a path to social skills or civilization progress, that is if you do something with it.
Yes, and the progress of civilization is entirely dependent upon the inner life where supernal ideals have been spiritized and then acted out according to the guidance of the Spirit of Truth who directs the loving relationships between all persons and things.
111:4.3 The advances of true civilization are all born in this inner world of mankind. It is only the inner life that is truly creative.Philosophy is responsible for bringing material thought and spiritual thought together in such a way as to make it useful. The soul follows the Spirit of Truth but the material mind follows wisdom, or its highest philosophy. The soul cannot function on the material world, but it can influence material thinking if the material mind is seeking its influence. Philosophy is that middle ground where the two must adjust, adapt and apply. We are forced to live this dual life, but we are not without the means to do it on the highest level possible, ever progressing and evolving towards perfection.Really? Won’t all things be restored that should be, when the rebellion and quarantine are over?
Do you really believe this? I’ve never heard of such a thing. Biologic evolution is not under a quarantine, as far as I know. Biologic evolution of DNA continued unabated after the rebellion, and when it reached its peak, we qualified for a Material Son and Daughter. I can’t recall ever reading anything about our DNA going through any sudden changes after the quarantine is over. I think we are told that an attempt to upstep the races at this point in time would result in disaster.
64:6.32 Stronger and better races are to be had from the interbreeding of diverse peoples when these different races are carriers of superior inheritance factors. And the Urantia races would have benefited by such an early amalgamation provided such a conjoint people could have been subsequently effectively upstepped by a thoroughgoing admixture with the superior Adamic stock. The attempt to execute such an experiment on Urantia under present racial conditions would be highly disastrous.
I’m pretty sure the quarantine is only spiritual in nature. But it has no effect on us at all due to the presence of the Spirit of Truth and the Adjusters. In fact, I’m pretty sure that even our biologic problems can now be overcome if we would allow ourselves to be guided by the Spirit of Truth.
114:5.4 Planetary isolation is, of course, of little concern to individual mortals since the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth upon all flesh nineteen hundred years ago.
Got to admit I’m humbled by responses.
have always considered philosophy as all talk and no action. Books on the subject just put me to sleep.
new perspectives are encouraging and motivating.
thank you.
Really? Won’t all things be restored that should be, when the rebellion and quarantine are over?
Do you really believe this?…
I do. But it may take until light and life’s dawn, or beyond. All things that God intended for Urantia will be brought to fruition, no? The route might be circuitous owing to evil outbreaks, but in time all will be as it should, I predict.
…I can’t recall ever reading anything about our DNA going through any sudden changes after the quarantine is over.
No, not sudden I think, given our Father’s overarching penchant for gradual evolution.
I think we are told that an attempt to upstep the races at this point in time would result in disaster.
Agree, but in ages to come, in light and life, over great stretches of time (and who knows what sort or how many descending sons and daughters will arrive on Urantia’s shores across time?) I believe we will receive all that is ours.
I’m pretty sure the quarantine is only spiritual in nature. But it has no effect on us at all due to the presence of the Spirit of Truth and the Adjusters. In fact, I’m pretty sure that even our biologic problems can now be overcome if we would allow ourselves to be guided by the Spirit of Truth.
Again agree, but even greater problems can be faced and overcome when we have evolved and been upstepped as we should have been by Adam and Eve, when Urantia regains its orientation toward Paradise with all necessary tools and experience, and begins its climb up the cosmic scale to the heights of light and life.
Urantia’s future development is a good topic for discussion, but drifting off the thread’s central subject, my fault.
Richard E Warren
Got to admit I’m humbled by responses. have always considered philosophy as all talk and no action. Books on the subject just put me to sleep. new perspectives are encouraging and motivating. thank you.
Thank YOU! That’s just what philosophy needs, a new image.
Richard E Warren
Rick Warren wrote: Urantia’s future development is a good topic for discussion, but drifting off the thread’s central subject, my fault.Yeah, I agree. I thought we were talking about the here and now. Didn’t you originally ask how to cultivate interest in philosophy? Dreaming about future days hundreds of thousands of years away won’t help us now. I think the image of philosophers sitting in their comfy chairs dreaming about abstract ideas is what has turned the last few generations to more tangible things like science. The pendulum has to shift back to deep thinking, but not all the way to daydreaming. TBG are dreamy topics, lofty goals for sure, but they need to grow roots if anyone is going to get interested in using them to develop a philosophy of living.
Back on the first generation forum, the forum I was told by the second generation forum’s creator that we ran into the ground (I wish it was back so I could run it further into the ground, it was fun), I had a topic about bringing love to life using a daily exercise of looking for truth, beauty and goodness in everyday encounters then jotting them down for pondering. I got railroaded and ridiculed back then, but maybe things are different now? Don’t know . . . but it seems to me that training the mind to habitually look for TBG is not a bad thing. It at least gives you things in the real world to be thankful for every day.
Rick Warren wrote: Urantia’s future development is a good topic for discussion, but drifting off the thread’s central subject, my fault.Yeah, I agree. I thought we were talking about the here and now. Didn’t you originally ask how to cultivate interest in philosophy? Dreaming about future days hundreds of thousands of years away won’t help us now. I think the image of philosophers sitting in their comfy chairs dreaming about abstract ideas is what has turned the last few generations to more tangible things like science. The pendulum has to shift back to deep thinking, but not all the way to daydreaming. TBG are dreamy topics, lofty goals for sure, but they need to grow roots if anyone is going to get interested in using them to develop a philosophy of living. Back on the first generation forum, the forum I was told by the second generation forum’s creator that we ran into the ground (I wish it was back so I could run it further into the ground, it was fun), I had a topic about bringing love to life using a daily exercise of looking for truth, beauty and goodness in everyday encounters then jotting them down for pondering. I got railroaded and ridiculed back then, but maybe things are different now? Don’t know . . . but it seems to me that training the mind to habitually look for TBG is not a bad thing. It at least gives you things in the real world to be thankful for every day.
Yes, well said all. I would only add that Truth, Beauty, and Goodness provide a personal mental framework for (spiritual) values. Today’s world, generally speaking, seems somewhat lost in a sea of criss-crossing values without much direction or harmony. I think of TB&G as philosophy’s anchors sometimes. But philosophy can be instilled without using the word, or the TBG triad. It’s all about values not words, values are the substance God is building the Supreme from, as I understand it.
Educators, good ones, can make values appealing again, people are designed to crave them, seems like.
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Richard E Warren
It’s all about values not words, values are the substance God is building the Supreme from, as I understand it.
Yes, and we’re told that we have to learn how to distinguish between what is value and what has value.
100:3.3 In the contemplation of values you must distinguish between that which is value and that which has value. You must recognize the relation between pleasurable activities and their meaningful integration and enhanced realization on ever progressively higher and higher levels of human experience.
Got to admit I’m humbled by responses. have always considered philosophy as all talk and no action. Books on the subject just put me to sleep. new perspectives are encouraging and motivating. thank you.
Greetings Gene! Actually philosophy is mostly all action and very little, too little, talk and even less thought. Every single person has a philosophy of living. Too many do not think about what their philosophy of living is. Indeed, we cannot have a philosophy that we do not live…for, like religion, only the living of it is the true expression of either philosophy or religion. Our philosophy, IMO, is what we live for, why we choose and do what we so choose and do. It is true that many, perhaps most, people cannot even articulate their philosophy of living….but they’ve got one nonetheless.
While a good and functional philosophy unites the inner/spiritual world (religious aspect) and material world (the science of the physical realm, including how to exist in the physical systems of the world) – still, we enter every day with some functional or dysfunctional perspective of reality or non-realities that predetermines our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices for the day. Why do we do what we do? Why do we choose what we so choose? There are irrational, unbalanced, and painful philosophies for living as well as thoughtful, noble, enlightening, and functional philosophies.
One of the greatest benefits and values to be discovered in the Urantia Papers is that knowledge of facts and truth regarding universe realities and our place in the cosmology of reality which supports a sound philosophy of living. The eliminations of error and the reduction of confusions allows for this very functional result – a philosophy of living the unites and harmonizes our inner and outer lives into greater meaning and greater progress as we, over time and by experience, learn how to transfer the seat of our very identity.
Philosophy is not an abstraction nor all that complex really….especially if one knows what’s what and who’s who and has a time unit perspective that sees beyond the material struggles of the day and provides context for perspective. Philosophy is pretty much our “view” and our “lense” through which we see everything, including ourselves within that everything.
It’s always been one of my favorite topics….especially once I discovered the UB!
A great philosophical question is: Why does God punish us? or: Why does God pour suffering upon us?
A few centuries before Jesus brought the good news of God’s paternal love and mercy, the Eastern philosophers knew that it is free will that delivers both “suffering” and “punishment”. Suffering (mental, emotional, and much material pain/loss, etc.) comes from very bad motives, intentions, priorities, and choices – especially when those are based on what the UB calls mind poisons – fear, anger, impatience, pride, greed, envy, etc. In other words we suffer or benefit from the reciprocity and consequence cycle of cause and effect! Free will causes effects – both good and bad. God only gave us free will…it’s up to us what we do with it….but the effects derived by this profound mechanism and lever of cause are not ours to choose. We only choose the cause of the effects. Want different effects/outcomes? Simple! The effects follow the cause….this ain’t rocket science!
The solution? Love of God and for others. Easy peasy!! Self love causes suffering and brings punishment. Not as personalized by God or the gods or luck. Nope. Without consequences of choice, how then would a free will mind learn to make better choices? Why do the outcomes of love and service work out so well? This is not accidental. The WAY of the universe is loving service one for another. That WAY works. Me first and right now….does not work!
Those who have this textbook of universe reality (not all of it but much of it) can acknowledge the differences between cosmology and philosophy. Cosmology is the who and what and when and where of the universe while philosophy is that perspective which harmonizes all of that in mind, choice, and deed. What remains so mysterious to many should be so much clearer to us.
I look forward to other’s far better and more precise articulation of this. Thanks everyone.
Greetings Gene! Actually philosophy is mostly all action and very little, too little, talk and even less thought. Every single person has a philosophy of living. Too many do not think about what their philosophy of living is. Indeed, we cannot have a philosophy that we do not live…for, like religion, only the living of it is the true expression of either philosophy or religion. Our philosophy, IMO, is what we live for, why we choose and do what we so choose and do. It is true that many, perhaps most, people cannot even articulate their philosophy of living….but they’ve got one nonetheless. While a good and functional philosophy unites the inner/spiritual world (religious aspect) and material world (the science of the physical realm, including how to exist in the physical systems of the world) – still, we enter every day with some functional or dysfunctional perspective of reality or non-realities that predetermines our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices for the day. Why do we do what we do? Why do we choose what we so choose? There are irrational, unbalanced, and painful philosophies for living as well as thoughtful, noble, enlightening, and functional philosophies. One of the greatest benefits and values to be discovered in the Urantia Papers is that knowledge of facts and truth regarding universe realities and our place in the cosmology of reality which supports a sound philosophy of living. The eliminations of error and the reduction of confusions allows for this very functional result – a philosophy of living the unites and harmonizes our inner and outer lives into greater meaning and greater progress as we, over time and by experience, learn how to transfer the seat of our very identity. Philosophy is not an abstraction nor all that complex really….especially if one knows what’s what and who’s who and has a time unit perspective that sees beyond the material struggles of the day and provides context for perspective. Philosophy is pretty much our “view” and our “lense” through which we see everything, including ourselves within that everything. It’s always been one of my favorite topics….especially once I discovered the UB!
Nicely said, Bradly!
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Richard E Warren
A great philosophical question is: Why does God punish us? or: Why does God pour suffering upon us? A few centuries before Jesus brought the good news of God’s paternal love and mercy, the Eastern philosophers knew that it is free will that delivers both “suffering” and “punishment”. Suffering (mental, emotional, and much material pain/loss, etc.) comes from very bad motives, intentions, priorities, and choices – especially when those are based on what the UB calls mind poisons – fear, anger, impatience, pride, greed, envy, etc. In other words we suffer or benefit from the reciprocity and consequence cycle of cause and effect! Free will causes effects – both good and bad. God only gave us free will…it’s up to us what we do with it….but the effects derived by this profound mechanism and lever of cause are not ours to choose. We only choose the cause of the effects. Want different effects/outcomes? Simple! The effects follow the cause….this ain’t rocket science! The solution? Love of God and for others. Easy peasy!! Self love causes suffering and brings punishment. Not as personalized by God or the gods or luck. Nope. Without consequences of choice, how then would a free will mind learn to make better choices? Why do the outcomes of love and service work out so well? This is not accidental. The WAY of the universe is loving service one for another. That WAY works. Me first and right now….does not work! Those who have this textbook of universe reality (not all of it but much of it) can acknowledge the differences between cosmology and philosophy. Cosmology is the who and what and when and where of the universe while philosophy is that perspective which harmonizes all of that in mind, choice, and deed. What remains so mysterious to many should be so much clearer to us. I look forward to other’s far better and more precise articulation of this. Thanks everyone.
Thank you! Some fine thought work there, as usual. But I think of consequences instead of punishment, consequences are not judgmental, vindictive, or personal.
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Richard E Warren
So where are we, as a world, with regard to education, philosophy in schools?
This Wikipedia article provides fascinating insights into that question. Looks like the US is disregarding it until college level:
“In the United States of America philosophy is not generally taught at pre-college level.”
Continental Europe
In many other European countries philosophy is part of the high school curriculum, such as for example in Austria, Croatia, Bulgaria, France, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Poland, and mainly Spain. In Germany the subject ethics has been introduced in more and more parts since the 1970s. In Croatia the subject ethics can be taken instead of religious education which mainly focuses on Catholic tradition. Spain is the most clear example of a philosophy education. In Secondary school all the students must take a little introduction to ethics, but it is during the sixth form, known there as ‘bachillerato’, where it is compulsory to take philosophy and citizenship in the first course, as well as history of philosophy in the second course in order to apply for university or just to get the title. University-level philosophy courses are widespread and are usually thought to have the longest tradition in the subject due to the historical ascription for the invention of philosophy as a separate discipline to the philosophers of Ancient Greece. Despite this, interest in the subject in most of Europe seems to be on a relative decline.
Africa and the Middle East
Philosophy education has a long tradition in some of the Arab states. According to a UNESCO-led poll, philosophy is taught at secondary level in Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco, Mauritania, Qatar, the Syrian Arab Republic, Tunisia and Yemen. In most Arab countries the subject is taught at university (higher education) level. However, there are exceptions, like Oman and Saudi Arabia, where philosophy is entirely absent at most educational levels.
Asia
Philosophy education is traditionally available in most of Asia since the continent gave birth to the schools of Eastern philosophy. The 20th and early 21st century saw the increased interest in the field (especially in Western philosophy) in the Asian continent, with India, China and especially South Korea and Japan as major contemporary academic and research hubs.[need quotation to verify] However, broad regional and interstate differences apply.
Source/more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_education
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Richard E Warren
My personal opinion is that education in the U.S. will continue to be inadequate and mediocre as long as it is run by the state. How can a state run school teach philosophy if God and religion are excluded (separation of church and state taken to the max)? By TUB definition, philosophy must consider religion or it’s not philosophy. Ethics is a poor cousin, perhaps better than nothing, but I don’t think so.
The problem with teaching ethics is that currently ethics means teaching the art of purchasing and applying a condom, who to contact for an abortion, how to undergo sexual transition gracefully, the philosophy of same sex families, the philosophy of anti-capitalism, the moral and ethical mandates of global warming, the injustice of competition, and the need to punish humanity for all its past, present and future transgressions, particularly racial transgressions. I don’t think it’s really ethics that is being taught as much as political ideologies, always a problem when the state dictates the lesson plan. Which brings me back to what I said at the beginning of this thread, I think ideology has replaced philosophy in our era.
It might be interesting to take a look at education on a neighboring planet starting on page 812. They don’t teach philosophy in K-12. I think they spend their time teaching kids how to work, make things and be productive. There are schools of philosophy at the college level. And apparently they meld philosophy and religion in their own way. It sounds like a better plan to me.
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