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Posts
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It is obvious that words on paper in a book, scripture or revelation are symbols of symbols and, therefore, twice removed from reality. Reality is personal experience with God and in God. That is literal and sacred and real. I wish those who post would do a little less quoting and a little more thinking, including myself. But, that is just my opinion. Manny
You summed up my entire position in that one paragraph!
BB
BB – I just remembered that we’ve been studying together for almost three years now. I have learned much with you and by your questions and responses. I learn still. From your responses here I conclude that literalists are also interpretists and interpretists may also be literalists. I agree upon reflection. It has been obviously true that each re-reading of the text does open new meanings and further changes my choices and priorities in new ways subject to my maturing experiential results. There is a point in that process called wisdom. May I find it yet. Thanks to all.
BB – I just remembered that we’ve been studying together for almost three years now. I have learned much with you and by your questions and responses. I learn still. From your responses here I conclude that literalists are also interpretists and interpretists may also be literalists. I agree upon reflection. It has been obviously true that each re-reading of the text does open new meanings and further changes my choices and priorities in new ways subject to my maturing experiential results. There is a point in that process called wisdom. May I find it yet. Thanks to all.
Likewise
BB
Brooklyn_born wrote: Pharisees historically aren’t know as pagans or did they ever insert foreign practices into the Jewish religion.I don’t know a single scholar who agrees with your claim that the Pharisees never inserted foreign practices into the Jewish religion. And more importantly, the UB does not agree with you either.
137.7.6-7.9 The scribes and rabbis, taken together, were called Pharisees. They referred to themselves as the “associates.” In many ways they were the progressive group among the Jews, having adopted many teachings not clearly found in the Hebrew scriptures, such as belief in the resurrection of the dead, a doctrine only mentioned by a later prophet, Daniel.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Their scripture is static, Bonita. Mosaic law has never been added onto.Brooklyn_born wrote: Commentary is not scripture. There is no addition to scripture as they are fixed. Works like Midrash and Mishnah are oral traditions that expound on Mosaic law.Well, that flies in the face of reality. As I explained before, Hebrew scriptures were entirely rewritten during the Babylonian captivity, which was well after Moses’ time. That means that the Mosaic law is not static. It has been changed. In fact, the Septuagent was compiled 100 years before Christ, which was another rewriting of Hebrew scripture. If something is rewritten from the original, that means that the original is not fixed. The so-called scriptures rewritten during Ptolemy II’s reign 300 years before Christ were originally compiled during the Babylonian exile 600 years before Christ. Both revisions were long, long after Moses walked the earth. During that time everything was rewritten to make the Jews look like the Chosen People. When you rewrite things you are unfixing them. Jewish scripture is a magical mix of history and folklore, and none of it is fixed except in the minds of literalists.Brooklyn_born wrote: I could be wrong but with all due respect, to me, you seem to be a staunch proponent of rigid, literal readings of TUB, in the strictest sense, avoiding “spiritual imagination” at all cost. I would think that that would qualify as a fetish.Well, with all due respect, I think that there are several people on this forum with imaginations that are not controlled, disciplined, mature or in alignment with reality. That would be imagination without guidance from above, an imagination swirling in the soup of the banal level of material mind. In order for the creative imagination to be useful to anyone it must be divinely guided. This is accomplished through prayer, an unbroken communion with its Creator.
132:3.10 Universe progress is characterized by increasing personality freedom because it is associated with the progressive attainment of higher and higher levels of self-understanding and consequent voluntary self-restraint. The attainment of perfection of spiritual self-restraint equals completeness of universe freedom and personal liberty. Faith fosters and maintains man’s soul in the midst of the confusion of his early orientation in such a vast universe, whereas prayer becomes the great unifier of the various inspirations of the creative imagination and the faith urges of a soul trying to identify itself with the spirit ideals of the indwelling and associated divine presence.If I have been avoiding spiritual imagination at all cost, I would never have advocated the use of the alter ego. The creative spiritual imagination is responsible for the creation of the alter ego within the psyche of a God-seeking, prayerful person. Prayer provides fertile soil for the spiritual imagination and communion with the presence of God within provides direction for the imagination.
Without such direction, the imagination can run amok, something I see on this forum every day in the form of preoccupation with: demons; rebellion; raping angels; Physical Controllers as saviors; cosmic nights; big crunches; pre-existing souls; God picking up and leaving Paradise for the purpose of causing pandemonium; God imprisoned by the Eternal Son; and, God as a rebel. This kind of imagination, besides being ridiculous, is not healthy. It is not wholesome and positive. It is not truly creative. It is not useful for God’s purpose which is to eliminate fear and encourage trust in a friendly universe.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Hebrews did not have a concept of soul or spirit as is understood in Christianity and 5th epochal revelation.And that’s not true either unless you deny the existence of the Pharisees. Because they were concerned for the sanctification and purification of the Covenant people, the Pharisees taught immortality of the soul, resurrection of the dead, a last judgment and a new world to come, ideas which had evolved during the Babylonian exile. The belief in the resurrection made its first appearance around 200 BC when apocalyptic Jewish literature, particularly the Book of Daniel, began to gain in popularity.
Brooklyn_born wrote: On an earlier TUB online community BBS I mentioned similarities between TUB’s cosmology and Qabbala’s Sefirot, which are the 10 emanations of creation.If the Sefiroth has 10 emanations of creation, how does that line up with God the Sevenfold and the seven superuniverses of creation in time and space? And how do the ten Sephiroth, which are linked to 22 Nativoth, line up anywhere in the UB. Where do you see the number 22 in the cosmology presented in the UB?
Brooklyn_born wrote: In Qabbala there are four universes (Atsilut, Beriah, Yesirah, Asaiah); in TUB there are four as well (central universe, super universe, universe and systems.).So wait . . . you’re comparing Atsilut to Havona? All right, it’s an extreme stretch since Atsilut is supposed to represent unity. But comparing Beriah with the seven superuniverses doesn’t make any sense at all. Beriah may be a creative world, but it is a realm of non-sequential meaning. Non-sequential means timelessness. The seven super universes exist within time-space where there is definite sequentiality. Then you compare Yesirah to a place called universe. What does that mean? What universe? There are hundreds of thousands of universes. Finally, you compare Assiah with systems. What systems? Assiah is supposed to represent the world of sequential reality and spacial meaning . . . like Urantia. Planets are not systems. A system in UB cosmology consists of one thousand inhabited planets.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Also the Sefirot tree is divided into two sets of three and seven sefirot; in TUB’s numerology the archetype models are three and seven.But what about the number four? There are four cosmic levels of experiential reality or universe reality realizations. If the Otz Chiim describes the route by which God’s divine energy, or light, finds expression in the physical world, then wouldn’t that have something to do with the number five? The qualities of universal reality expressed and manifested in the physical world are: material, mind, spirit, soul and personality.
Brooklyn_born wrote: In Qabbala, the world cut off from the whole of creation is Asaiah (material plane) but more exact, the Sefira “Malkuth.” Interestingly, our system, Satania, was cut off from the main circuits and quarantined.Malkuth has to do with consciousness of the sensations of the physical world. It’s banal, bestial, instinctive and reflexive. It is a level described as separated, yet the UB declares that only sin separates us from God. The physical world is not sin. That is a gnostic concept and Kabbalah is eerily similar to gnosticism in many ways. But none of this has anything whatsoever to do with spiritual quarantines.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Qabbala speaks of the dark sphere called Daat where sin or what is termed “qliphoth” came into creation. TUB speaks of the prison world of spiritual darkness and the introduction of sin among the celestials.Da’ath is knowledge without understanding, learning without lamination. It is highly negative, it denies faith for its own sake and is a symbol of an unpurified mind. It is not a real place; it is a concept within the mind. The prison world is a real place. The Qliphoth is the dark side of reality, or the negative counterpart of the Otz Chiim. It is a purely dualistic concept (very gnostic) and is not found anywhere in the UB. The Qliphoth is the source of dark vices and evils in the world, the home of demons and monsters who cause corruption and disease. In fact, it is the “diseased” side of the Otz Chiim. Where in the UB do you see God having a dark and “diseased” side?
Brooklyn_born wrote:I am referring to the four worlds to which we belong leading up to Paradise; (1) System , (2) universe, (3) super and (4) central universe. They line up neatly with the Qabbala’s worlds.What’s a system world, a universe world, a super world, and a central universe world? None of that makes sense. If you want to break it down into “worlds”, what about the seven mansion worlds? That’s seven, not four. Actually, there’s a total of fifty-six Jerusem worlds that we have to visit. Actually, the number 56 shows up a lot. And, where do we go after the seven mansion worlds one might ask? We Go to Jerusem itself, then Edentia and all its satellites, then to Salvington and the surrounding educational worlds there, onto Uversa and its worlds, finally landing in Havona, which has many worlds that must be traversed. So how does that all add up to four?
Brooklyn_born wrote: Further, besides Thought Adjusters, Father fragments are referred to as “Mystery” monitors. Mystery? Mystery of what? Seems like fertile ground to sow the seeds of mysticism to me.Mystery of what, you ask? Did you read Paper 1 Section 4? Here’s the opening paragraph for starters:
1:4.1 The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of mortal minds. The manner in which the Universal Father sojourns with the creatures of time is the most profound of all universe mysteries; the divine presence in the mind of man is the mystery of mysteries.
The mystery is how the physical body of man can become the “temple of God”. That’s the mystery of mysteries.
Revelation or scripture, I believe they’re the same. TUB is a 5th epochal revelation, NT scripture or words of Christ is 4th epochal revelation.
Whooooaaa! Hold on a minute! Revelation and scripture are not the same thing and the New Testament is not a revelation.
Scripture is sacred writings. Sacred means revered, venerated and regarded with respect because of a presumed connection with God. It is a manmade stipulation concerning that which is considered to be inspired.
The words of Christ as written in the New Testament are NOT the Fourth Epochal Revelation. Allow me to quote the definition of the Fourth Epochal Relation:
92:4.8 4. Jesus of Nazareth. Christ Michael presented for the fourth time to Urantia the concept of God as the Universal Father, and this teaching has generally persisted ever since. The essence of his teaching was love and service, the loving worship which a creature son voluntarily gives in recognition of, and response to, the loving ministry of God his Father; the freewill service which such creature sons bestow upon their brethren in the joyous realization that in this service they are likewise serving God the Father.
As you can see, the Fourth Epochal Revelation is actually JESUS himself. It is not a book ABOUT Jesus or ABOUT his words. It is JESUS HIMSELF as a revelation of the Father’s love. Jesus’ life was the same as his teachings: love and service.
Revelation is a personal religious experience and occurs due to the presence of God within the soul. The UB is not sacred because it is not inspired. Revelation is a phenomenon independent of scriptures, priests, sacred symbols, rituals, rites, altars, shrines, temples, holy waters, relics, fetishes, charms and inspired books. Even without the UB, individual revelation would continue in this world as personal religious experience because of the presence of the Adjusters.
I do not agree. It is not plainly written in clear language otherwise you’d have a uniform reading of TUB . . .
Not true. Jesus spoke plainly and never required a uniform interpretation of his spoken words. EVER. (141:5.1) And he rarely bothered to correct misunderstandings (141:7.12). The same applies for the written word. The UB is plainly written, it is the interpretation of the plainly written word that gets distorted by individual interpretation. It is inevitable, and each person must sort it out for him/herself according to their capacity of receptivity for truth.
Facts might be uniform, but truth is living and flexible. The words in the UB are meant to urge and prod the mind to look for truth. Truth, as experienced this side of Paradise, is not uniform. But there definitely is uniform guidance from the Adjusters. They are spiritually uniform.
149:3.3 When Jesus first met with the evangelists at the Bethsaida camp, in concluding his address, he said: “You should remember that in body and mind — emotionally — men react individually. The only uniform thing about men is the indwelling spirit. Though divine spirits may vary somewhat in the nature and extent of their experience, they react uniformly to all spiritual appeals. Only through, and by appeal to, this spirit can mankind ever attain unity and brotherhood.”
MidiChlorian wrote: . . . where if it where “reprehensible” why state that “Mysticism, as the technique of the cultivation of the consciousness of the presence of God”. And that it “is altogether praiseworthy” ????Obviously, from the quote here are two types of mysticism, positive and negative, or natural and unnatural. The positive, natural type of mysticism is the practice of the presence of God through the development of a relationship with Deity in prayer and worship which results in the personal religious experience of soul growth and the expression of fruits of the spirit. The negative or unnatural type of mysticism is a self-delusional occult practice designed to result in either absorption into the Absolute or the attainment of otherwise inaccessible intellectual knowledge of the Absolute. The latter involves practices designed to contact the world of spirit through auto-suggestive practices, like self-hypnosis, which render the intellect passive and submissive. And, union with or absorption into Deity is desired immediately rather than through the process of growth, thus bypassing the most important part of living.
Positive mysticism has nothing to do with esotericism. It is not obscure, abstract or opaque in any way. God is available; he is not in hiding, nor is he only discoverable by special people with special skills, special practices or special knowledge. Jesus taught that personal revelation, or personal religious experience, is not obscure because the spirit lives in all of us; it is not exotic because we only need faith; it is not irrelevant to everyday living in that discovery of God within constitutes true reality and hence allows us to discover this reality in our everyday world through the pursuit of truth, beauty and goodness. We become the reflection of what we spiritually see, feel, hear and know within us, the practice of the presence of God.
Does Kabbalah lead to the practice of the presence of God? I think it is possible depending on how you think about it. But for the most part, Kabbalistic thought is meant to achieve ascendent knowledge of the secrets of God, as Ein Sof, who is essentially unknowable. Experience of the presence of God within the soul is not necessarily acquirable knowledge, and it certainly is not a secret; any child can find God and experience his presence. The key is simplicity, easy-believing and full-trusting faith.
155:6.12 Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one. It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God.
Not true. Jesus spoke plainly and never required a uniform interpretation of his spoken words. EVER. (141:5.1) And he rarely bothered to correct misunderstandings (141:7.12). The same applies for the written word.Bonita, you are not Jesus nor am I, or anyone else here on Earth for that matter. He had power to take authority onto himself because of who he was. I would defer to his reading if he were here to expound on it. Unfortunately none of the celestials are here to clarify or explain any revelation.The UB is plainly written,I do not believe TUB agrees with your statement. Take a look….“We have been instructed to introduce new terms only when the concept to be portrayed finds no terminology in English which can be employed to convey such a new concept partially or even with more or less distortion of meaning…”.TUB has “partial” and “distortion of meaning” within its pages of revelation, according to the above.it is the interpretation of the plainly written word that gets distorted by individual interpretation.And who declares the understanding of this ‘plainly written word’? You ? Me?It is inevitable, and each person must sort it out for him/herself according to their capacity of receptivity for truth. Facts might be uniform, but truth is living and flexible. The words in the UB are meant to urge and prod the mind to look for truth. Truth, as experienced this side of Paradise, is not uniform. But there definitely is uniform guidance from the Adjusters. They are spiritually uniform.149:3.3 When Jesus first met with the evangelists at the Bethsaida camp, in concluding his address, he said: “You should remember that in body and mind — emotionally — men react individually. The only uniform thing about men is the indwelling spirit. Though divine spirits may vary somewhat in the nature and extent of their experience, they react uniformly to all spiritual appeals. Only through, and by appeal to, this spirit can mankind ever attain unity and brotherhood.”
I agree.
BB
I stand corrected on the Pharisees. They did believe in a “resurrection” doctrine, which was foreign to the Hebrews. But it does not change my overall argument, that those doctrines were not a part of Hebrew scripture. They are just that, “doctrine,” born out of interpretation of scripture.Brooklyn_born wrote: Pharisees historically aren’t know as pagans or did they ever insert foreign practices into the Jewish religion.I don’t know a single scholar who agrees with your claim that the Pharisees never inserted foreign practices into the Jewish religion. And more importantly, the UB does not agree with you either.
137.7.6-7.9 The scribes and rabbis, taken together, were called Pharisees. They referred to themselves as the “associates.” In many ways they were the progressive group among the Jews, having adopted many teachings not clearly found in the Hebrew scriptures, such as belief in the resurrection of the dead, a doctrine only mentioned by a later prophet, Daniel.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Their scripture is static, Bonita. Mosaic law has never been added onto.Brooklyn_born wrote: Commentary is not scripture. There is no addition to scripture as they are fixed. Works like Midrash and Mishnah are oral traditions that expound on Mosaic law.Well, that flies in the face of reality. As I explained before, Hebrew scriptures were entirely rewritten during the Babylonian captivity, which was well after Moses’ time. That means that the Mosaic law is not static. It has been changed. In fact, the Septuagent was compiled 100 years before Christ, which was another rewriting of Hebrew scripture. If something is rewritten from the original, that means that the original is not fixed. The so-called scriptures rewritten during Ptolemy II’s reign 300 years before Christ were originally compiled during the Babylonian exile 600 years before Christ. Both revisions were long, long after Moses walked the earth. During that time everything was rewritten to make the Jews look like the Chosen People. When you rewrite things you are unfixing them. Jewish scripture is a magical mix of history and folklore, and none of it is fixed except in the minds of literalists.Brooklyn_born wrote: I could be wrong but with all due respect, to me, you seem to be a staunch proponent of rigid, literal readings of TUB, in the strictest sense, avoiding “spiritual imagination” at all cost. I would think that that would qualify as a fetish.Well, with all due respect, I think that there are several people on this forum with imaginations that are not controlled, disciplined, mature or in alignment with reality. That would be imagination without guidance from above, an imagination swirling in the soup of the banal level of material mind. In order for the creative imagination to be useful to anyone it must be divinely guided. This is accomplished through prayer, an unbroken communion with its Creator.
132:3.10 Universe progress is characterized by increasing personality freedom because it is associated with the progressive attainment of higher and higher levels of self-understanding and consequent voluntary self-restraint. The attainment of perfection of spiritual self-restraint equals completeness of universe freedom and personal liberty. Faith fosters and maintains man’s soul in the midst of the confusion of his early orientation in such a vast universe, whereas prayer becomes the great unifier of the various inspirations of the creative imagination and the faith urges of a soul trying to identify itself with the spirit ideals of the indwelling and associated divine presence.If I have been avoiding spiritual imagination at all cost, I would never have advocated the use of the alter ego. The creative spiritual imagination is responsible for the creation of the alter ego within the psyche of a God-seeking, prayerful person. Prayer provides fertile soil for the spiritual imagination and communion with the presence of God within provides direction for the imagination. Without such direction, the imagination can run amok, something I see on this forum every day in the form of preoccupation with: demons; rebellion; raping angels; Physical Controllers as saviors; cosmic nights; big crunches; pre-existing souls; God picking up and leaving Paradise for the purpose of causing pandemonium; God imprisoned by the Eternal Son; and, God as a rebel. This kind of imagination, besides being ridiculous, is not healthy. It is not wholesome and positive. It is not truly creative. It is not useful for God’s purpose which is to eliminate fear and encourage trust in a friendly universe.BB
Epochal Revelation and scripture are the same. TUB speaks of five. One of importance is the New Testament. Here is what we are told:.4 There have been many events of religious revelation but only five of epochal significance. These were as follows: Jesus of Nazareth. Christ Michael presented for the fourth time to Urantia the concept of God as the Universal Father, and this teaching has generally persisted ever since…”:And how did he deliver this 4th epochal revelation to mankind, Bonita? In “scripture” format, as it has even “persisted ever since…”; the Holy Bible, New Testament SCRIPTURE is how it PERSISTS.Revelation or scripture, I believe they’re the same. TUB is a 5th epochal revelation, NT scripture or words of Christ is 4th epochal revelation.
Whooooaaa! Hold on a minute! Revelation and scripture are not the same thing and the New Testament is not a revelation. Scripture is sacred writings. Sacred means revered, venerated and regarded with respect because of a presumed connection with God. It is a manmade stipulation concerning that which is considered to be inspired. The words of Christ as written in the New Testament are NOT the Fourth Epochal Revelation. Allow me to quote the definition of the Fourth Epochal Relation:
92:4.8 4. Jesus of Nazareth. Christ Michael presented for the fourth time to Urantia the concept of God as the Universal Father, and this teaching has generally persisted ever since. The essence of his teaching was love and service, the loving worship which a creature son voluntarily gives in recognition of, and response to, the loving ministry of God his Father; the freewill service which such creature sons bestow upon their brethren in the joyous realization that in this service they are likewise serving God the Father.
As you can see, the Fourth Epochal Revelation is actually JESUS himself. It is not a book ABOUT Jesus or ABOUT his words. It is JESUS HIMSELF as a revelation of the Father’s love. Jesus’ life was the same as his teachings: love and service. Revelation is a personal religious experience and occurs due to the presence of God within the soul. The UB is not sacred because it is not inspired. Revelation is a phenomenon independent of scriptures, priests, sacred symbols, rituals, rites, altars, shrines, temples, holy waters, relics, fetishes, charms and inspired books. Even without the UB, individual revelation would continue in this world as personal religious experience because of the presence of the Adjusters.
BB
Bonita, it says “greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God….” There are MANY mysteries, revealed according to many factors; e.g., spiritual receptivity and ministration, resurrection, epochal revelation, etc… There are MANY MYSTERIES, not one.Brooklyn_born wrote: Further, besides Thought Adjusters, Father fragments are referred to as “Mystery” monitors. Mystery? Mystery of what? Seems like fertile ground to sow the seeds of mysticism to me.Mystery of what, you ask? Did you read Paper 1 Section 4? Here’s the opening paragraph for starters:
1:4.1 The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of mortal minds. The manner in which the Universal Father sojourns with the creatures of time is the most profound of all universe mysteries; the divine presence in the mind of man is the mystery of mysteries.
The mystery is how the physical body of man can become the “temple of God”. That’s the mystery of mysteries.
BB
I do not believe TUB agrees with your statement. Take a look… . “We have been instructed to introduce new terms only when the concept to be portrayed finds no terminology in English which can be employed to convey such a new concept partially or even with more or less distortion of meaning…” . TUB has “partial” and “distortion of meaning” within its pages of revelation, according to the above.
What the quote is referring to is new concepts that are only partially understood with more or less distortion of meaning by humans with partial or distorted experience with truth. It’s the interpretation that gets distorted. When ancient men saw pebbles on the ground after a heavy rainfall that weren’t there before the rain, they thought the pebbles were brought up from under the ground by the gods. They did not understand erosion. Eventually they understood that. Eventually we will understand new terms introduced by the revelators, but only as we grow in experience with truth. New things are generally confusing.
And who declares the understanding of this ‘plainly written word’? You ? Me?
It would be best if meanings were revealed by the Spirit of Truth. But honestly, I find a lot of people on this forum have more trouble with the English language than they do with new terms introduced in the UB.
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