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Back to the topic. . .
While the first garden became submerged, I don’t recall anything which suggests that the original location of the city of the Planetary Prince is not still above sea level.
Apparently it’s below sea level. Here’s the narrative. (78:7.5)
(875.2) 78:7.5 But Noah really lived; he was a wine maker of Aram, a river settlement near Erech. He kept a written record of the days of the river’s rise from year to year. He brought much ridicule upon himself by going up and down the river valley advocating that all houses be built of wood, boat fashion, and that the family animals be put on board each night as the flood season approached. He would go to the neighboring river settlements every year and warn them that in so many days the floods would come. Finally a year came in which the annual floods were greatly augmented by unusually heavy rainfall so that the sudden rise of the waters wiped out the entire village; only Noah and his immediate family were saved in their houseboat.
(875.3) 78:7.6 These floods completed the disruption of Andite civilization. With the ending of this period of deluge, the second garden was no more. Only in the south and among the Sumerians did any trace of the former glory remain.
(875.4) 78:7.7 The remnants of this, one of the oldest civilizations, are to be found in these regions of Mesopotamia and to the northeast and northwest. But still older vestiges of the days of Dalamatia exist under the waters of the Persian Gulf, and the first Eden lies submerged under the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea.
I thought long and hard in considering any answer to the posts made in the arrogance which is void and no shadow of meaning, the reward is yours.
The dictionary I used is a little older than yours 1828 vintage and 1798 vintage
TINE v.t. To Kindle, to set on fire
TINE v.t. To shut or inclose; to fill
TINE Saxon; To Hut
TINE To rage
TINE To fight
TINE Oh yes also: The tooth or spike of a fork; a prong; the tooth of a harrow or drag
The understanding is in relationship “To set on fire” or fulfill potential.
Or otherwise “Inclose; to fill to fulfill potential.
Oh yes FYI
Soul: immortal substance in man
I SHALL NOT DEFEND NOR HAVE ANY REASON TO DO SO.
If kindness and respect is kindled elsewhere then no need to convey any thoughts within this forum, learning of the Urantia material is lacking here.
Seumas
(102:7.6) The God-knowing individual is not one who is blind to the difficulties or unmindful of the obstacles which stand in the way of finding God in the maze of superstition, tradition, and materialistic tendencies of modern times. He has encountered all these deterrents and triumphed over them, surmounted them by living faith, and attained the highlands of spiritual experience in spite of them. But it is true that many who are inwardly sure about God fear to assert such feelings of certainty because of the multiplicity and cleverness of those who assemble objections and magnify difficulties about believing in God. It requires no great depth of intellect to pick flaws, ask questions, or raise objections. But it does require brilliance of mind to answer these questions and solve these difficulties; faith certainty is the greatest technique for dealing with all such superficial contentions.I SHALL NOT DEFEND NOR HAVE ANY REASON TO DO SO.
If kindness and respect is kindled elsewhere then no need to convey any thoughts within this forum, learning of the Urantia material is lacking here.
Seumas
Brilliance.
I thought long and hard in considering any answer to the posts made in the arrogance which is void and no shadow of meaning, the reward is yours. The dictionary I used is a little older than yours 1828 vintage and 1798 vintage TINE v.t. To Kindle, to set on fire TINE v.t. To shut or inclose; to fill TINE Saxon; To Hut TINE To rage TINE To fight TINE Oh yes also: The tooth or spike of a fork; a prong; the tooth of a harrow or drag The understanding is in relationship “To set on fire” or fulfill potential. Or otherwise “Inclose; to fill to fulfill potential. Oh yes FYI Soul: immortal substance in man I SHALL NOT DEFEND NOR HAVE ANY REASON TO DO SO. If kindness and respect is kindled elsewhere then no need to convey any thoughts within this forum, learning of the Urantia material is lacking here. Serum as
i totally disagree. You received straight forward responses that were nothing but accurate Urantia book materials. I think you mistook arrogance for instruction.
learning of the Urantia material is lacking here.
(130:3.7) “The pride of unspiritualized learning is a treacherous thing in human experience”
Ahhh . . . and the real Seumas reveals himself. Gone are the lofty italicized and bracketed words that seem to come from elsewhere. Thank you for finally being your human self Seumas. I’m sorry you find it so disagreeable that people can disagree. I’m sorry you’re no longer gratified and no longer respect my position as a fellow human being. I’m also fascinated that you have such ancient dictionaries. They must be worth a bundle. I see you used the dated word inclose instead of enclose. I also noticed that you used a word in another post that is not familiar to me, the word en-wait; is that also from the ancient dictionaries? Sorry, I’m digressing. I have more questions:
You call yourself a composite being: “Spirit (Mystery monitor), Soul augmented by mind, character, individuality and tine.”
Are you saying that you are composed of “to kindle; to set fire; to shut or inclose; to fill; to Hut (whatever that is); to rage; to fight”? Or, are you saying that the soul is augmented by these things? It’s not clear.
You also said that “Tine is the potential within the soul itself.”
Are you saying that the potential within the soul is “to kindle; to set fire, to shut or inclose, to fill, to Hut (whatever that is) to rage; to fight?
TUB tells us that the potential within the soul is the Adjuster himself. I agree that the Adjuster attempts to kindle our desire for truth, beauty and goodness. The source of all spiritual urges are from the Adjuster. But I don’t think he kindles rage or fighting, nor does he shut or inclose. God is love and true love is outgoing.
101:6.2 Throughout all religious experience, from its earliest inception on the material level up to the time of the attainment of full spirit status, the Adjuster is the secret of the personal realization of the reality of the existence of the Supreme; and this same Adjuster also holds the secrets of your faith in the transcendental attainment of the Ultimate. The experiential personality of evolving man, united to the Adjuster essence of the existential God, constitutes the potential completion of supreme existence and is inherently the basis for the superfinite eventuation of transcendental personality.
107:4.1 To say that a Thought Adjuster is divine is merely to recognize the nature of origin. It is highly probable that such purity of divinity embraces the essence of the potential of all attributes of Deity which can be contained within such a fragment of the absolute essence of the universal presence of the eternal and infinite Paradise Father.
109:4.3 The type of Adjuster has much to do with the potential for expression of the human personality.
118.8.2 Mortal man is a machine, a living mechanism; his roots are truly in the physical world of energy. Many human reactions are mechanical in nature; much of life is machinelike. But man, a mechanism, is much more than a machine; he is mind endowed and spirit indwelt; and though he can never throughout his material life escape the chemical and electrical mechanics of his existence, he can increasingly learn how to subordinate this physical-life machine to the directive wisdom of experience by the process of consecrating the human mind to the execution of the spiritual urges of the indwelling Thought Adjuster.
109:5.4 The great problem of life is the adjustment of the ancestral tendencies of living to the demands of the spiritual urges initiated by the divine presence of the Mystery Monitor.
156:5.11 You are destined to live a narrow and mean life if you learn to love only those who love you. Human love may indeed be reciprocal, but divine love is outgoing in all its satisfaction-seeking. The less of love in any creature’s nature, the greater the love need, and the more does divine love seek to satisfy such need. Love is never self-seeking, and it cannot be self-bestowed. Divine love cannot be self-contained; it must be unselfishly bestowed.
Seumas wrote: The understanding is in relationship “To set on fire” or fulfill potential. Or otherwise “Inclose; to fill to fulfill potential.Could you be more specific, given your statement above, as to what part of tine makes up your composition? What is the relationship you are speaking of? Where does the fire come from? What is the potential and how do you fulfill it? And why would you “inclose” this? Inclose, in the 21st century dictionary, is the same as the word enclose, which means to surround on all sides; to close off; fence in; seclude; envelope; to contain. I’m not following your logic there. Why would you enclose your fulfilled potential. It’s not making sense to me.Seumas wrote: Soul: immortal substance in manIn an earlier post you wrote:Seumas wrote: The ‘morontial soul’ is developed from the embryonic ‘soul’ within the human experience. The human does not contain a ‘morontial soul’ it is matured from the embryonic ‘soul’ what are your thoughts?You asked me my thoughts and I answered that I disagree with your statement, “The human does not contain a ‘morontial soul'”.You now tell me that the soul is an “immortal substance in man”. What would that substance be exactly? It cannot be material substance because we know for a fact that material substance is not immortal. However, we do know that morontia substance can be immortal.
12:8.16 The brighter the shining of the spiritualized personality (the Father in the universe, the fragment of potential spirit personality in the individual creature), the greater the shadow cast by the intervening mind upon its material investment. In time, man’s body is just as real as mind or spirit, but in death, both mind (identity) and spirit survive while the body does not. A cosmic reality can be nonexistent in personality experience. And so your Greek figure of speech—the material as the shadow of the more real spirit substance—does have a philosophic significance.
49:4.9 But mortal mind without immortal spirit cannot survive. The mind of man is mortal; only the bestowed spirit is immortal. Survival is dependent on spiritualization by the ministry of the Adjuster—on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul; at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards the Adjuster’s mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of the material mind.
1:3.7 In the inner experience of man, mind is joined to matter. Such material-linked minds cannot survive mortal death. The technique of survival is embraced in those adjustments of the human will and those transformations in the mortal mind whereby such a God-conscious intellect gradually becomes spirit taught and eventually spirit led. This evolution of the human mind from matter association to spirit union results in the transmutation of the potentially spirit phases of the mortal mind into the morontia realities of the immortal soul. Mortal mind subservient to matter is destined to become increasingly material and consequently to suffer eventual personality extinction; mind yielded to spirit is destined to become increasingly spiritual and ultimately to achieve oneness with the surviving and guiding divine spirit and in this way to attain survival and eternity of personality existence.
Seumas wrote: If kindness and respect is kindled elsewhere then no need to convey any thoughts within this forum, learning of the Urantia material is lacking here.I disagree that, “learning of the Urantia material is lacking here.” We are discussing TUB. At least I am. I provide quotes from the text then explain how I arrive at a meaning of those words. It’s the meaning I arrive at, which you can accept or reject. No problem. But, you have not provided any quotes or text from TUB, only from ancient dictionaries, as far as I can tell. You have given your opinion on many things, but now refuse to explain how you arrived at those opinions. Give us your logic. Show me the text that substantiates your ideas. How did you arrive at your conclusions? I ask my questions of you with sincerity, so there’s no need to be defensive. However, if you find more acceptance of your ideas elsewhere, a place that doesn’t demand evidence in TUB to back up your words, and you wish to go there instead, I certainly understand. No problem.
I provide quotes from the text then explain how I arrive at a meaning of those words.
What Seumas told you Bonita isnt rocket science. He’s showed you that:
(158:8.1) “If the things you do with your hands, or the things you see with your eyes give offense in the progress of the kingdom, sacrifice these cherished idols, for it is better to enter the kingdom minus many of the beloved things of life rather than to cling to these idols and find yourself shut out of the kingdom.”
158:8.1 If you would be first in the kingdom, seek to minister these good truths to your brethren in the flesh. But whosoever causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck and he were cast into the sea. If the things you do with your hands, or the things you see with your eyes give offense in the progress of the kingdom, sacrifice these cherished idols, for it is better to enter the kingdom minus many of the beloved things of life rather than to cling to these idols and find yourself shut out of the kingdom. But most of all, see that you despise not one of these little ones, for their angels do always behold the faces of the heavenly hosts.”
. . . seek to minister these good truths to your brethren in the flesh . . .
What does it mean to minister? To minister means to provide something helpful.
What are the good truths Jesus is talking about? In context, I think he’s referring to the practice of humbling oneself.
What does it mean to be humble? It means selflessness, or self-forgetfulness.
. . . sacrifice these cherished idols
What does Jesus mean by cherished idols and beloved things of life? Jesus meant we are to sacrifice self-importance, the holding of grudges and the inability to forgive.
141:3.8 Jesus portrayed conquest by sacrifice, the sacrifice of pride and selfishness. By showing mercy, he meant to portray spiritual deliverance from all grudges, grievances, anger, and the lust for selfish power and revenge. And when he said, “Resist not evil,” he later explained that he did not mean to condone sin or to counsel fraternity with iniquity. He intended the more to teach forgiveness, to “resist not evil treatment of one’s personality, evil injury to one’s feelings of personal dignity.
141:3.8 Jesus portrayed conquest by sacrifice, the sacrifice of pride
Yes!
“The pride of unspiritualized learning”
130:3.7 The pride of unspiritualized learning is a treacherous thing in human experience. The true teacher maintains his intellectual integrity by ever remaining a learner.
If unspiritualized learning is the refusal to remain a learner, how does running away from another person’s questions constitute spiritualized learning?
What is the best way to learn? Is it just by listening (or reading as it is here) then accepting without question? Or does learning involve asking all manner of questions and looking for all manner of answers? How did Jesus learn? How did Ganid learn? Certainly, if one reads the context of quote 130:3.7, one realizes that Ganid and Jesus did sit and listen to the so-called learned men but they did not necessarily accept without question all they heard. They were not passive in the process of learning. They asked questions, they sought out answers and they came to their own conclusions.
Our entire career consists of on-going learning . . . spiritualized learning . . . learning which is alive and active, growing and progressing. This is why we are given so many mercy credits, because learning often involves making mistakes. Not everything we think we know and understand is true. Most of it is merely scaffolding, meant to be torn down. I think that refusal to allow temporary scaffolding to be torn down could constitute a form of pride, a form of stubborn clinging to cherished idols and beloved things of this life.
102:2.4 Time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge; religion makes its endowments immediately available, albeit there is the important factor of growth in grace, definite advancement in all phases of experience. Knowledge is an eternal quest; always are you learning, but never are you able to arrive at the full knowledge of absolute truth. In knowledge alone there can never be absolute certainty, only increasing probability of approximation; but the religious soul of spiritual illumination knows, and knows now. And yet this profound and positive certitude does not lead such a sound-minded religionist to take any less interest in the ups and downs of the progress of human wisdom, which is bound up on its material end with the developments of slow-moving science.
The progress of human wisdom is dependent upon the eternal quest for knowledge on all three levels of reality. If someone is over-developed on any one of those levels of reality, it creates an unbalance. One can be overdeveloped spiritually as easily as one can become overdeveloped intellectually. In fact, I think spiritual overdevelopment at the expense of intellect occurs more often in the TUB community, but that is merely opinion.
16:6.10 In the local universe mind bestowals, these three insights of the cosmic mind constitute the a priori assumptions which make it possible for man to function as a rational and self-conscious personality in the realms of science, philosophy, and religion. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values. 16:6.11 It is the purpose of education to develop and sharpen these innate endowments of the human mind; of civilization to express them; of life experience to realize them; of religion to ennoble them; and of personality to unify them.
It’s not just the spirit level of reality that is important, but how the spirit level of reality integrates and coordinates the other two levels of reality (matter and mind) in order to unify life’s experience of eternal learning. Jesus learned very early on that this sort of balance is critical:
127:6.12 Jesus is rapidly becoming a man, not just a young man but an adult. He has learned well to bear responsibility. He knows how to carry on in the face of disappointment. He bears up bravely when his plans are thwarted and his purposes temporarily defeated. He has learned how to be fair and just even in the face of injustice. He is learning how to adjust his ideals of spiritual living to the practical demands of earthly existence. He is learning how to plan for the achievement of a higher and distant goal of idealism while he toils earnestly for the attainment of a nearer and immediate goal of necessity. He is steadily acquiring the art of adjusting his aspirations to the commonplace demands of the human occasion. He has very nearly mastered the technique of utilizing the energy of the spiritual drive to turn the mechanism of material achievement. He is slowly learning how to live the heavenly life while he continues on with the earthly existence. More and more he depends upon the ultimate guidance of his heavenly Father while he assumes the fatherly role of guiding and directing the children of his earth family. He is becoming experienced in the skillful wresting of victory from the very jaws of defeat; he is learning how to transform the difficulties of time into the triumphs of eternity.
Personally, I strive for all three levels of learning and then try to coordinate, integrate and cooperate with the spiritual dominance of all reality. I cannot blindly accept another person’s reality as my own without question. I learned from Jesus’ words about the blind leading the blind. I also learned from these words from Jesus:
163:1.3 Remember, as you go forth proclaiming peace on earth and good will among men, you must contend with bitter and self-deceived enemies; therefore be as wise as serpents while you are also as harmless as doves.
Who are these bitter and self-deceived enemies I wonder? They do show up from time to time, that’s for sure. We must learn to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. In other words, don’t be fooled, don’t swallow whole things you hear, see and read. Ask questions, seek answers and disregard what doesn’t sound true. People with a lot of pride in their unspiritualized learning tend to get all ruffled up when their so-called wisdom is disregarded. That’s fine. No problem. Gentle as a dove.
Here’s some more information on what education (and learning) is supposed to be about:
71:7.5-13 Education is the business of living; it must continue throughout a lifetime so that mankind may gradually experience the ascending levels of mortal wisdom, which are:
1. The knowledge of things.
2. The realization of meanings.
3. The appreciation of values.
4. The nobility of work – duty.
5. The motivation of goals – morality.
6. The love of service – character.
7. Cosmic insight – spiritual discernment.
And then, by means of these achievements, many will ascend to the mortal ultimate of mind attainment, God-consciousness.
Isn’t it fascinating that all of these achievements can lead to God-consciousness? Knowledge of things appears to be somewhat important. It’s also important to discover meanings. How do you discover meanings without asking questions I wonder?
How do you discover meanings without asking questions I wonder?
(102:7.6) The God-knowing individual is not one who is blind to the difficulties or unmindful of the obstacles which stand in the way of finding God in the maze of superstition, tradition, and materialistic tendencies of modern times. He has encountered all these deterrents and triumphed over them, surmounted them by living faith, and attained the highlands of spiritual experience in spite of them. But it is true that many who are inwardly sure about God fear to assert such feelings of certainty because of the multiplicity and cleverness of those who assemble objections and magnify difficulties about believing in God. It requires no great depth of intellect to pick flaws, ask questions, or raise objections. But it does require brilliance of mind to answer these questions and solve these difficulties; faith certainty is the greatest technique for dealing with all such superficial contentions.
102:7.6 The God-knowing individual is not one who is blind to the difficulties or unmindful of the obstacles which stand in the way of finding God in the maze of superstition, tradition, and materialistic tendencies of modern times. He has encountered all these deterrents and triumphed over them, surmounted them by living faith, and attained the highlands of spiritual experience in spite of them. But it is true that many who are inwardly sure about God fear to assert such feelings of certainty because of the multiplicity and cleverness of those who assemble objections and magnify difficulties about believing in God. It requires no great depth of intellect to pick flaws, ask questions, or raise objections. But it does require brilliance of mind to answer these questions and solve these difficulties; faith certainty is the greatest technique for dealing with all such superficial contentions.
Some people are afraid to assert their feelings of certainty about God to those who, “assemble objections and magnify difficulties about believing in God.” None of this is happening here. No one is picking flaws, asking questions or raising objections of another person’s certainty about God . . . which is what the quote is about.
It does take brilliance of mind to answer such questions though. And if I, or anyone else here were to challenge someone concerning their certainty of God, I would hope they had the brilliance of mind to answer such a challenge. But unfortunately, no one here is making those challenges. I, and others, are merely studying TUB. We are discussing the text and what we think it means. That’s all it is.
It’s most likely a matter of the difference between belief and faith. Beliefs are limiting, binding and fixating, are they not? Certainly they can inhibit learning if they are. And certainly people get all emotional about their beliefs . . . this we see here quite often.
101:8.2 Belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. But living religious faith is more than the association of noble beliefs; it is more than an exalted system of philosophy; it is a living experience concerned with spiritual meanings, divine ideals, and supreme values; it is God-knowing and man-serving. Beliefs may become group possessions, but faith must be personal. Theologic beliefs can be suggested to a group, but faith can rise up only in the heart of the individual religionist.
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