Suffering

[Gene]

Bonita wrote:

schadenfreude

new word, thx – glad there is a look up function when I read your posts.

“Jesus was impervious to disappointment”. That means that when it came his way he flipped that internal mental switch that changed the disappointment into something else, something cosmically harmonious. It’s called “self mastery”, something I can only read about and a skill I look forward to acquiring.

sometimes we suffer and we don’t even know it like being out of sync with the cosmos. Soul suffering? Lack of growth? On the other hand we can suffer as a result of being in sync with the cosmos. It can be mental and or physical.

sometimes I think it may be better to get hit on the head with a pine cone, suffering of that sort is simple and easy to get over.

Other types of suffering can linger. Like PTSD, why does it linger? Is it by choice?? Don’t we choose what we want to hold onto?? Why would anyone choose to retain really bad experiences to the point where it interferes with a healthy lifestyle? Maybe there is some value there I’m missing??

[Mara]

Gene wrote:

. . . is some value . . .??

. . . to our fiery trials?

2:5.3   The Creators are the very first to attempt to save man from the disastrous results of his foolish transgression of the divine laws. God’s love is by nature a fatherly affection; therefore does he sometimes “chasten us for our own profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness.” Even during your fiery trials remember that “in all our afflictions he is afflicted with us.”

[Van Amadon]

God the Father must really be something to create imperfection in humans, and that he is with us through all of imperfection’s massive tensions and sufferings, to have started out this way in his perfect universe.

I am awed by it all and feel honored to have been given this life to live.

 

 

[Mara]

148:6.11   Then Jesus made this final statement: “The Father in heaven does not willingly afflict the children of men. Man suffers, first, from the accidents of time and the imperfections of the evil of an immature physical existence. Next, he suffers the inexorable consequences of sin — the transgression of the laws of life and light. And finally, man reaps the harvest of his own iniquitous persistence in rebellion against the righteous rule of heaven on earth. But man’s miseries are not a personal visitation of divine judgment. Man can, and will, do much to lessen his temporal sufferings. But once and for all be delivered from the superstition that God afflicts man at the behest of the evil one. Study the Book of Job just to discover how many wrong ideas of God even good men may honestly entertain; and then note how even the painfully afflicted Job found the God of comfort and salvation in spite of such erroneous teachings. At last his faith pierced the clouds of suffering to discern the light of life pouring forth from the Father as healing mercy and everlasting righteousness.”

[Bonita]

Gene wrote:

Other types of suffering can linger. Like PTSD, why does it linger? Is it by choice?? Don’t we choose what we want to hold onto?? Why would anyone choose to retain really bad experiences to the point where it interferes with a healthy lifestyle? Maybe there is some value there I’m missing??

You’re assuming that all the mechanisms that go into PTSD are under voluntary control.  They’re not.  Some are due to actual neurochemical damage which needs work-arounds.  Sometimes work-arounds either aren’t possible, or aren’t pursued.  Either way, it’s a life-long struggle, like so many other things.

It’s like any kind of suffering, it’s what you make of it; it’s your attitude that matters most.  The Adjuster tries to adjust attitudes.  Attitudes include the entire mental state concerning a particular aspect of life.  If your attitude is adjusted to align with reality, it gets some spiritual sticking power.  Oh!  And look! The quote I found below is about the spirit-gravity circuit . . . which has to do with attitudes . . . hmmm, do you think attitude has anything to do with emotions and actions?

6:4.6 The indwelling Father fragment adjusts the human mind to progressively divine attitudes, whereupon such an ascending mind becomes increasingly responsive to the spiritual drawing power of the all-powerful spirit-gravity circuit of the Second Source and Center.

Gene wrote:

new word, thx – glad there is a look up function when I read your posts.

Hey, you’re welcome.  Every time I learn a new word I try to use it as much as possible.  I learned that one about 5 or 6 years ago.  It’s one of my favorites.  I’ve enjoyed a little of it myself once or twice.  Everybody loves it when the bad guy gets what’s coming to him . . . human nature.  I learned pusillanimous while on vacation recently so expect to see that word pop up too. (I just wish I could spell all these new words.)

 

[Gene]

pusillanimous

I did not miss it

[Gene]

“You’re assuming that all the mechanisms that go into PTSD are under voluntary control. They’re not. Some are due to actual neurochemical damage which needs work-arounds. Sometimes work-arounds either aren’t possible, or aren’t pursued. Either way, it’s a life-long struggle, like so many other things.”

yeah, the only workarounds being zombifying drugs that cause seizures or sewing circles where everyone spills their insides. It’s all dead end, no work around in sight.

still seems a choice to hold onto bad stuff to me. But if it were, well – there would be a reasonable/desirable alternative.

i think bad memories linger for a reason related to growth, suffering, punishment. Now punishment don’t make sense either. But some folks see it that way.

[André]

Hy everyone,

God the Father must really be something *  to create imperfection in humans, and that he is with us through all of imperfection’s massive tensions * * and sufferings, to have started out this way in his perfect universe *** .

I am awed by it all and feel honored to have been given this life to live. Van Amadon

*   … Van as we maturate, grown and everlasting ascend to unfold, find ours Almythy Father whom was / is / will be changeless EVER.  56:9.6

**  … “massive tensions”  …  supervise under HIS caring Love, Tenderness.

***   …. “perfect universe”  encountering seven conceivable types of perfection. 0:1.19. …  wich are still red through faith’s eyes.

 And then, when you are blessed with spiritual vision, go forth to your work, dedicating your life to the cause of leading mankind to search for God and to seek eternal realities with the eye of spiritual faith and not with the eyes of the material mind.  181:2.20

1:5.16 (29.6) It is literally true: “In all your afflictions he is afflicted.” “In all your triumphs he triumphs in and with you.” His prepersonal divine spirit is a real part of you.

Thanks Van to summarize your personal point of view as it draw closer level with mine.

 

André

[Bradly]

Thanks to everyone for such awesome contributions….and welcome once again to Paul and thanks to him for sharing such a personal perspective and experience with suffering.

I began this topic by pointing out that suffering is a repercussion…it is not personalized punishment inflicted upon any person or being.  Some suffering is the localized repercussions some must suffer by the choices made by others rather than by the one who is also the source of the suffering.  In this regard I am reminded that the guardian angels, and our personal TA’s, and our Creator Son all share stories of suffering at the hands or by the choices of their charges….as does the Supreme become deprived of potential by the failures of others.

One of the more inspiring and encouraging of the teachings of the Papers for me is the absolute and endless affection and empathy and compassion of those who minister one to another in time and space.  God is love….every aspect of reality is embraced and uplifted by that boundless and endless love.  Our destiny is to find perfection of being and motive by the imperfections of free will choice and experiential growth over time…lots of it.  So while the suffering from the repercussions of experiential error may be inevitable, the more growth we experience, the less we suffer from the repercussions and the more we adjust choices to reduce suffering those specific forms of suffering endured.

Every circle of spiritization progress we enter introduces new challenges to our learning in the free will arena…but such progress should also release us from other, less mature, causes of suffering.  For example, once a soul embraces its spirit nature and eternal destiny and faith and trust replace/displace anxiety, doubt, fear, and confusions, THEN do we suffer less and less from those mind poisons which interfere with facing future uncertainties with hope and trust and confidence.  I think now we begin to suffer more from the frustrations of failure to exhibit our ideals in our choices….we now suffer more consciously from the personal realization of our own immaturity in the choices we make.

In other words, suffering has moved from the repercussive and self centered blunders of immaturity to the blossoming of maturity and the desire to think better, choose better, and serve better.  First we suffer from a lack of ideals and a philosophy of living with the Spirit at its center (the transfer of identity from material to spirit in our dual natured status) until we learn to reduce that suffering caused by material self importance; and then we suffer from failure to quickly achieve perfection (think impatience and/or frustration and/or disappointment)…or the attainment of our highest ideals and hopes.

This I think is an inflection point where the mortal mind finds a whole new perspective on suffering….our own and that of others.  I also think this is the point when personal compassion as the experiential expression of Divine Love becomes a primary motivator for all future intentions and choices.  We have crossed the transfer/transition line of becoming more spiritual and less material in our perspective and responses at every intersection of free will choice and relationship.

I think the UB teaches that suffering is primarily a result of the natural, evolutionary, experiential, growth cycle of every mortal born ascender and is primarily a measurement of personal faith first and the self identification with the Spirit as an inherent element in the perfecting ascension adventure.

So…one might suggest that those who suffer from the same things in the same ways over time suffer primarily from a lack of personal growth in the Spirit…for such growth should relieve many forms of suffering while introducing some new ones until the wisdom of our choices match the ideals of the perfecting soul and God Fragment.

Thanks again to all for sharing.

[Bonita]

Bradly wrote:

In other words, suffering has moved from the repercussive and self centered blunders of immaturity to the blossoming of maturity and the desire to think better, choose better, and serve better.

I think they call that being “born of the spirit”.  Maturing selves discover God, recognize he is their Father, then commend their lives to the service of becoming like him, (which requires a living interpretation by the Spirit of Truth, and action by the personality).  It’s a beautiful thing, to be filled with the desire to do good to others.

130:6.4  . . . And when you become so readjusted to life within yourself, you become likewise readjusted to the universe; you have been born again — born of the spirit — and henceforth will your whole life become one of victorious accomplishment. Trouble will invigorate you; disappointment will spur you on; difficulties will challenge you; and obstacles will stimulate you.  . . .

143:2.8 If, then, my children, you are born of the spirit, you are forever delivered from the self-conscious bondage of a life of self-denial and watchcare over the desires of the flesh, and you are translated into the joyous kingdom of the spirit, whence you spontaneously show forth the fruits of the spirit in your daily lives; and the fruits of the spirit are the essence of the highest type of enjoyable and ennobling self-control, even the heights of terrestrial mortal attainment–true self-mastery.

34:4.7 Those God-knowing men and women who have been born of the Spirit experience no more conflict with their mortal natures than do the inhabitants of the most normal of worlds, planets which have never been tainted with sin nor touched by rebellion. Faith sons work on intellectual levels and live on spiritual planes far above the conflicts produced by unrestrained or unnatural physical desires. The normal urges of animal beings and the natural appetites and impulses of the physical nature are not in conflict with even the highest spiritual attainment except in the minds of ignorant, mistaught, or unfortunately overconscientious persons.

142.5.3  “The Supreme spirit shall bear witness with your spirits that you are truly the children of God. And if you are the sons of God, then have you been born of the spirit of God; and whosoever has been born of the spirit has in himself the power to overcome all doubt, and this is the victory that overcomes all uncertainty, even your faith.

[Bradly]

Bonita wrote:

Bradly wrote:

In other words, suffering has moved from the repercussive and self centered blunders of immaturity to the blossoming of maturity and the desire to think better, choose better, and serve better.

I think they call that being “born of the spirit”. Maturing selves discover God, recognize he is their Father, then commend their lives to the service of becoming like him, (which requires a living interpretation by the Spirit of Truth, and action by the personality). It’s a beautiful thing, to be filled with the desire to do good to others.

130:6.4 . . . And when you become so readjusted to life within yourself, you become likewise readjusted to the universe; you have been born again — born of the spirit — and henceforth will your whole life become one of victorious accomplishment. Trouble will invigorate you; disappointment will spur you on; difficulties will challenge you; and obstacles will stimulate you. . . . 143:2.8 If, then, my children, you are born of the spirit, you are forever delivered from the self-conscious bondage of a life of self-denial and watchcare over the desires of the flesh, and you are translated into the joyous kingdom of the spirit, whence you spontaneously show forth the fruits of the spirit in your daily lives; and the fruits of the spirit are the essence of the highest type of enjoyable and ennobling self-control, even the heights of terrestrial mortal attainment–true self-mastery. 34:4.7 Those God-knowing men and women who have been born of the Spirit experience no more conflict with their mortal natures than do the inhabitants of the most normal of worlds, planets which have never been tainted with sin nor touched by rebellion. Faith sons work on intellectual levels and live on spiritual planes far above the conflicts produced by unrestrained or unnatural physical desires. The normal urges of animal beings and the natural appetites and impulses of the physical nature are not in conflict with even the highest spiritual attainment except in the minds of ignorant, mistaught, or unfortunately overconscientious persons. 142.5.3 “The Supreme spirit shall bear witness with your spirits that you are truly the children of God. And if you are the sons of God, then have you been born of the spirit of God; and whosoever has been born of the spirit has in himself the power to overcome all doubt, and this is the victory that overcomes all uncertainty, even your faith.

Thank you Bonita!

A little quibble and hair splitting if I may….I agree with that moment of personal, conscious consecration of will….mine came long ago.  But that moment does not deliver real progress in and of itself I do not think….it reorients us directionally and straightens the winding road somewhat to be sure…but still does that progressive transfer of the seat of identity require and demand choices of free will at the intersections of motive, intention, relationship, circumstance, and situation….so that maturity in the Spirit still must come by experience and the attending errors along the way.

But, over time and by such experience, I can testify that doubts and confusions diminish under the powerful new dynamic of belief, faith, and abiding trust.  It has taken time to truly appreciate the “…what does it matter if….” and the crushing of fondest hopes, etc.  This transition from material gravity/importance to spirit/mind gravities and the spiritization of the mind and soul in partnership with the TA is no automatic or instant process or result.  Whether reborn suddenly or gradually, still must the mind make endless choices and grow in experiential maturity.

And this is a great failure of the ‘salvation’ crowd in Christianity.  Conversion or dedication or being born of the Spirit does not deliver us from the repercussions of prior or current error….or future error which will still come along the edges of conflict and the vicissitudes of life.  But what should definitely result is a growing confidence and calmness in the midst of all of that and a whole new paradigm of perspective connecting the past to destiny and source to destiny and the great affection with which we are given to continue to ‘strive’.  The need for striving, ever greater striving, is key to success…and such properly motivated striving should reduce the strife and the tempest found in the inevitable uncertainties of that which is about to happen next!

Only change is changeless and only uncertainties are certain!  How do we face and approach such reality?  The believer does so rather sublimely with a small smile of appreciation in our search for meanings and values….for this is the true quest and adventure.  I spent many a year back in my hippie days, yondering about like a rolling stone…and I learned to be a traveler rather than a tourist – the destination is not so important as the trip itself.  We should learn to embrace the daily walk upon this long adventurous road to Paradise and know that we do not travel alone…or in any danger that could ever truly harm us or disrupt the road to the certain destination for believers.  Or so I think.

Suffering….a most interesting topic!

[Gene]

“And this is a great failure of the ‘salvation’ crowd in Christianity. Conversion or dedication or being born of the Spirit does not deliver us from the repercussions of prior or current error….or future error which will still come along the edges of conflict and the vicissitudes of life. But what should definitely result is a growing confidence and calmness in the midst of all of that and a whole new paradigm of perspective connecting the past to destiny and source to destiny and the great affection with which we are given to continue to ‘strive’. The need for striving, ever greater striving, is key to success…and such properly motivated striving should reduce the strife and the tempest found in the inevitable uncertainties of that which is about to happen next!”

makes me think about this from paper99:7.3 religion inspires man to live courageously and joyfully on the face of the earth; it joins patience with passion, insight to zeal, sympathy with power, and ideals with energy.

imagine passion, zeal, power and energy without being coupled/joined to patience, insight, sympathy and ideals, respectively ?

then the next sentence tells us to “meditate in the presence of the sovereignty of God”

it takes my mind to how traditional religions have  gotten so tangled up with institutions and lost track of the real religion of personal experience.

also comes to mind the concept of separation of church and state.

Secular society uses this not to just separate the churches from institutions but so separate us from God himself.

Who out there is meditating in the presence of the sovereignty of God before doing anything in a secular society?

this separation is a form of suffering that is a civilization inhibitor imho.

the organized religions say they offer peace and protection and salvation from the very problems that a real religion of personal experience feeds on.

[Bonita]

No need to quibble with me Bradly. I’m using TUB’s definition of “born of the spirit.”  Why you think I’m referring to the Evangelical Christian definition baffles me.  But even so, we’re on the same page.

[Bradly]

My dear Bonita….merely my confusing word smithing.  I did not think you were referring to the Evangelical definition at all.  I was trying to make two points:

First – the decision that leads to being born again more fully begins or advances the real work of personal transformation – the transfer of the seat of identity.  But no matter how profound the moment of consecration, there is not some instantaneous completion of the process to the transfer of identity.  Still does material gravity display its own pull on the self, and still must we progress decision by decision, until such time as motive, intention, priority, response, and free will more fully embrace the spirit nature.  Spiritization should be accelerated by being born again, true.  But the process must still be lived and our free will must become more directed by will and experience toward that transition known as transferring the seat of identity.  There is a distinction between the choice of rebirth itself and the results to come by such conscious consecration to God’s Way and Will.  Or so has been my own experience.  Growth is earned by choices and sincerity – lots of both!

Second – By the ‘salvation’ illusion of Christianity, I meant only to draw a distinction between the teachings in the UB regarding the point above and the belief that we are saved from the devil and damnation by some mere act or proclamation of belief.  Christianity, or many aspects of it, defy and deny the dual nature of humanity.  Instead, they substitute the devil made me do it for the reality that self importance and the material nature made us do ‘it’….whatever transgression du jour.  And many who believe in such salvation remain slaves and servants of the material nature rather than understand that being born again requires NEW motives, priorities, intentions, and responses to both the material world and the spirit life within.  Being born again should result in a very profound change in perspective.  I have found that for some/many, it often does not bring the hoped for results and fruits of the Spirit.  Why not?

I think some have confused the truth that it is not by works that God’s love and grace might be won, that getting saved therefor releases one from the need to ACT and CHANGE.  This, despite the example and teachings of the Master himself during his sojourn here.  I realize such a generalization is unfair and inaccurate to a large degree.  Many Christians do indeed change by hearing and following the Spirit within and become paragons of change and progress in the Spirit.  I only mean to speak to this transformative process….and it is a process, even once we are born again!  And early on in this transfer of identity things remain confusing, disappointing, challenging, and uncertain.  But by experience and focus and prayer, we begin to grow those fruits of the spirit which deliver a growing balance, harmony, confidence, and desire to do good to others as we become less self focused and self important in this family we discover we belong to.

So I come back to my “inflection point” noted above:  Being born again is or should be an inflection point, a point of transition, a new beginning of making new choices for new reasons and based on new priorities and perspective….it is when we embrace a new reason for being and a new way of being.  Being born again means we begin anew with much still to learn and achieve.  I hope I have not made myself even more confusing?

And thanks to Gene….really enjoyed your post.  Our world will achieve L&L only by religionist applying their highest ideals and personal skills/experience to the secular life we are all dependent upon.  The transfer of the seat of identity does not release any of us from the material world and life but such a transfer should result in wiser and better manipulations of the material life for the greater good of the greater number….service motivated secular institutions that demonstrate the religious life and experience of all citizens….the secular reflection of reality…truth, beauty, and goodness.

140:8.3 (1579.5) Jesus made clear to the three the difference between the requirements of apostleship and discipleship. And even then he did not forbid the exercise of prudence and foresight by the twelve. What he preached against was not forethought but anxiety, worry. He taught the active and alert submission to God’s will. In answer to many of their questions regarding frugality and thriftiness, he simply called attention to his life as carpenter, boatmaker, and fisherman, and to his careful organization of the twelve. He sought to make it clear that the world is not to be regarded as an enemy; that the circumstances of life constitute a divine dispensation working along with the children of God.

[Bonita]

Bradly wrote:

Spiritization should be accelerated by being born again, true.

I think spiritualization begins the moment we are born of the spirit.  Spiritualization is a process that takes an eternity.

Bradly wrote:

the belief that we are saved from the devil and damnation by some mere act or proclamation of belief.

I do think that a simple belief/faith in God is enough to ward off the “devil”. It shows a lack of desire for the “devil” and that’s all it takes.   Proclaiming you believe is just the beginning though, I agree.  Empty words won’t help and words without growth/progress won’t do either. But even a little faith goes a long, long way when it comes to the “devil” thing.

Bradly wrote:

Being born again should result in a very profound change in perspective.

Unless the birthing process is gradual. I know mine has been gradual – no cataclysmic conversions here, no Damascus Road incidents either. Changes in perspective evolved over time, none of it seemed that profound, but rather a natural and normal growth process. (103:2.1)  My memory of those few early years without an Adjuster is filled with recollections of being in love with Jesus, and since the age when I would have received my Adjuster, I can’t recall any time when I was not God-conscious. I can’t remember a time when everything wasn’t new and exciting either.  Nothing has changed in my spiritual life except my commitment level and the joy of sonship.  I never had a conscious birth, never had a re-birth either. So for people like me, I think being born of the spirit comes at the first moral decision and continues from there in a natural and normal way. Maybe I’m an oddity, I don’t know, but I kinda doubt it.  I think I’m pretty normal. (As do all the crazy people )

 

[Author]

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