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Thanks Midi, but BB was adamant about having the original language text. I don’t think he’s much interested in the English translation.
English text is fine providing the interpretation does not deviate from the interpretation of the original tongue. The English will supply “angel” in place of “malak.” If you place the Greek/Latin interpretation of angel on “malak” then you’ve effectively deviated from the interpretation of the original tongue. Let me state for the record, celestial angels are real and TUB establishes that fact. My point to you and others is the Hebrews had not developed their understanding to such a degree that they could yield that kind of interpretation of third epochal revelation. I am still looking for the passage where a midwayers re-interprets an old testament verse.
BB
That’s only one meaning of the word, for your edification. Superhuman also means divine, heavenly, otherworldly, unearthly, paranormal. Just using the dictionary there for my own edification.I guess then it is a toss up as you and I defer to different definitions.Do you know anything about the Pharisees and Essenes? They were REAL Jews. They worshipped in REAL synagogues and read REAL scriptures. Maybe you don’t consider them QUALITY Jews?
Bonita, all I ask is to produce scripture so that we can examine them. These Jewish groups adhered to different interpretations of the same scripture. I see no reason to cite them.
BB
Perhaps you could help me and reproduce the texts in the original language for Enoch viii. 1, ix. 6, x. 4–6, liv. 5, lxxxviiiI have attached a photo of Enoch viii. I underline in red the pertinent points. As you can see the angel Michael and Gabriel are observing rebellion activities from the “sky,” yet TUB tells us Gabriel observed those same activities on Jerusem; TUB clears that revelation for us, so we can assume Enoch’s revelation is figurative of Jerusem.As I explained previously Hebrews did not have a celestial concept. They placed Heaven at the summit of mountains where the sky meets Earth. Shortly I will Even inside the mountain was considered a Heavenly abode to them. I will show you Enoch’s journey inside a mountain where he encounters Heavenly hosts.BB
In this photo of Enoch vi you see angels descend from “Heaven” onto the summit before fully descending to Earth where they engage humanity. I am supplying this part of Enoch to demonstrate that the Hebrews (and their ancestors – Enoch) viewed angels as beings who have their dwelling atop mountains (as well as inside), which they considered heaven.
BB
BB – I’m curious about the parallels you find between the narrative of the rebellion and the church history you cite. I have spoken my piece that I think epochal revelation, if it is indeed epochal revelation, needs to be factual and as clearly presented as possible and, also, that I find the story as written far more important than the church history you cite. Enough said. But I have not read anything yet that details how the story of celestial rebellion might really be about this creedal dispute in early Christianity. The reading I did at Wikipedia from your link exposes a common truth I think in such mortal, interpretive disputes – both sides were half right!! Jesus/Michael is A son of God but not THE son of God as the third person of Deity. The argument as to whether THE Son of God is a member of original trinity (a concept I still cannot grasp) or not, presumes in this case, that Michael/Jesus is a member of the Trinity itself. The UB says no. Michael is one of an order of Sonship – and it is that order that is the creator of physical time and space creation. Now that little factoide would really blow the creedal doors off its hinges!! That’s one of the things I love most about the UB…..how magnificently it enlarges God and expands His creation into so many places and so many beings, all integrated in process and purpose. A Divine Scale of Reality. I have never read a single thing by a single author that does not reduce god and diminish the universe to an earth centric and mundane irrelevancy. Still, it might make an interesting discussion about the parallels you perceive. My reading of your links does not bring forth any such connection….or not yet anyway. But I’m willing to discover and consider those as you present them. As time allows…..Peace.
Bradly if after reading the history of St. Lucifer you do not see parallels with the story of Lucifer presented in TUB then we will have to agree to disagree.
BB
MidiChlorian wrote:
However, being that the Urantia Book was edited by other than Celestial beings, where it also can be assumed that errors are forthcoming from this process, thereby making any literal acceptance at “‘face’ value” subject to figurative interpretation.
Every word and punctuation change or edit by humans is well documented and itemized Midi – the UB has not been edited by any mortal in the multiple ways the Bible has been rewritten to actually change the content and meaning. Most of such edits to the UB are corrections to the transcription process but the whole list is readily available:
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/text-standardization?term=revisions#search-jump-result-0
Bradly, with your addition above, of the link, to the following entry, kind of makes my point from which your notation was taken:
42:6.7
First printing: …an electron weighs a little less than 1/2,000th of the smallest atom,…
Changed to: …an electron weighs a little more than 1/2,000th of the smallest atom…
Also:
First printing: The positive proton… weighs from two to three thousand times more…
Changed to: The positive proton… weighs almost two thousand times more… — [For historical reference, the first discussion of the relative masses of the structural elements of atoms in the Encyclopaedia Britannica is found in its 11th Edition (1910 / 1911) with revisions in the 12th (1922). The calculation of the relative masses of the electron and the hydrogen atom was undergoing a rapid evolution just prior to the writing of The Urantia Book, the ratio being 1:1700 in 1897; 1:2000 in 1904; and 1:1845 by 1922. This last ratio is also the one quoted in the 1934 Websters.] The revised wording is consistent with the statement in the paragraph following the subject paragraph (42:6.8), in the text where the author states that a proton is “eighteen hundred times as heavy as an electron;” and is also in general agreement with current scientific opinion which places the ratio at about 1:1836. After the committee’s work, this item, plus the closely-related following item, are the only recommended changes that do not have a straightforward typographical explanation.Where the UB quote sighted “42:6.7”:
(477.1) 42:6.7 Each atom is a trifle over 1/100,000,000th of an inch in diameter, while an electron weighs a little more than 1/2,000th of the smallest atom, hydrogen. The positive proton, characteristic of the atomic nucleus, while it may be no larger than a negative electron, weighs almost two thousand times more.*
(477.2) 42:6.8 If the mass of matter should be magnified until that of an electron equaled one tenth of an ounce, then were size to be proportionately magnified, the volume of such an electron would become as large as that of the earth. If the volume of a proton — eighteen hundred times as heavy as an electron — should be magnified to the size of the head of a pin, then, in comparison, a pin’s head would attain a diameter equal to that of the earth’s orbit around the sun.
In that as indicated in the change log above, indicates the change made and why, but as you read the reason for the change and take into account that the change was made from the “first printing”, my question would be: was the first printing verbatim as transcribed and documented from the source and or the source material, which from documented history of the source material, the notes were destroyed, thereby, is the first printing correct, and then edited based on the reasoning given above, which if the first was correct, as transcribed, and the correction based on the current science, who is to say that the original, or the first, was not the correct intention of the author?
Now, depending on when the notes or transcriptions were destroyed, assumedly after or just prior to the first printing, how is it that “the committee’s work” was correct and actually indicated the meaning projected by the author? This would indicate that in the original editing process of the transcripts, may not have been exactly what the authors actually meant to project. Also, if the Urantia Book required editing at all, would indicate that the committee members may have projected alternate intention into the edited work. Therefore, one cannot, based on records kept and not kept, assume that the Urantia Book is accurate as per its author’s intention.
Now I will give you a certain amount of leeway when it comes to punctuation, because if the Urantia Book was transcribed from verbal speech, punctuation would not have been notable unless the Celestial’s indicated at least a [stop] notation like in a telegram. But, even in the best editing circles, punctuation can make or brake the meaning of a sentence or a paragraph, for that matter. Therefore, I would contend that punctuation may have played a very big role in the context of the Urantia Book.
Please keep in mind that I am not wishing to discredit the Urantia Book, but I am saying that based on various possible discrepancies presented, a literal interpretation cannot be considered as 100% fact or truth, not to mention that the various readers, will bring in their life’s experience into account, even if this experience is less extensive.
Regarding your additional narration from the post which the above notation was taken, where I previously indicated that the information noted in the UB about Lucifer, was not new revelation, whereby you indicate that I should provide proof of my statement, would seem to be avoiding my original statement in that I actual would require that you provide UB quotes which you think are Lucifer revelation, or going further, rebellion information, which is not conjecture.
If you cannot provide any, then it might imply that you are less familiar than I with this topic of the previous Lucifer narrations in history, where I would sight many more then Biblical reference. Therefore, as I have mentioned before in other topics, the implication of Lucifer is only priori information as has been portrayed in history and cannot be validated as anything but a story. It might be interesting to create a mock trial of Gabriel VS. Lucifer to see if any evidence can be brought forward which could convict Lucifer of anything other than being a character in history that would not work without an advisory.
P.S.: Have you read The Sherman Diaries?
I have attached a photo of Enoch viii. I underline in red the pertinent points. As you can see the angel Michael and Gabriel are observing rebellion activities from the “sky,” yet TUB tells us Gabriel observed those same activities on Jerusem; TUB clears that revelation for us, so we can assume Enoch’s revelation is figurative of Jerusem. As I explained previously Hebrews did not have a celestial concept. They placed Heaven at the summit of mountains where the sky meets Earth. Shortly I will Even inside the mountain was considered a Heavenly abode to them. I will show you Enoch’s journey inside a mountain where he encounters Heavenly hosts.
B.B., your picture may not show the text you and Bonita have referenced, therefore I have provided the text here:
Enoch – 8
And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, ‘Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl (taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Êzêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven…
Enoch – 9
And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: ‘The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, “Bring our cause before the Most High.”‘ And they said to the Lord of the ages: ‘Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.’
Enoch – 10
Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: ‘Go to Noah and tell him in my name “Hide thyself!” and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.’ And again the Lord said to Raphael: ‘Bind Azâzêl hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dûdâêl, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.’ And to Gabriel said the Lord: ‘Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.’ And the Lord said unto Michael: ‘Go, bind Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth’ shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore. And then shall all the righteous escape, And shall live till they beget thousands of children, And all the days of their youth and their old age Shall they complete in peace. And then shall the whole earth be tilled in righteousness, and shall all be planted with trees and be full of blessing. And all desirable trees shall be planted on it, and they shall plant vines on it: and the vine which they plant thereon shall yield wine in abundance, and as for all the seed which is sown thereon each measure (of it) shall bear a thousand, and each measure of olives shall yield ten presses of oil. And cleanse thou the earth from all oppression, and from all unrighteousness, and from all sin, and from all godlessness: and all the uncleanness that is wrought upon the earth destroy from off the earth. And all the children of men shall become righteous, and all nations shall offer adoration and shall praise Me, and all shall worship Me. And the earth shall be cleansed from all defilement, and from all sin, and from all punishment, and from all torment, and I will never again send (them) upon it from generation to generation and for ever.
I have attached a photo of Enoch viii. I underline in red the pertinent points. As you can see the angel Michael and Gabriel are observing rebellion activities from the “sky,” yet TUB tells us Gabriel observed those same activities on Jerusem; TUB clears that revelation for us, so we can assume Enoch’s revelation is figurative of Jerusem. As I explained previously Hebrews did not have a celestial concept. They placed Heaven at the summit of mountains where the sky meets Earth. Shortly I will Even inside the mountain was considered a Heavenly abode to them. I will show you Enoch’s journey inside a mountain where he encounters Heavenly hosts.
B.B., your picture may not show the text you and Bonita have referenced, therefore I have provided the text here:
Enoch – 8
And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, ‘Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl (taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Êzêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven…
Enoch – 9
And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: ‘The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, “Bring our cause before the Most High.”‘ And they said to the Lord of the ages: ‘Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.’
Enoch – 10
Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: ‘Go to Noah and tell him in my name “Hide thyself!” and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.’ And again the Lord said to Raphael: ‘Bind Azâzêl hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dûdâêl, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.’ And to Gabriel said the Lord: ‘Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.’ And the Lord said unto Michael: ‘Go, bind Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth’ shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore. And then shall all the righteous escape, And shall live till they beget thousands of children, And all the days of their youth and their old age Shall they complete in peace. And then shall the whole earth be tilled in righteousness, and shall all be planted with trees and be full of blessing. And all desirable trees shall be planted on it, and they shall plant vines on it: and the vine which they plant thereon shall yield wine in abundance, and as for all the seed which is sown thereon each measure (of it) shall bear a thousand, and each measure of olives shall yield ten presses of oil. And cleanse thou the earth from all oppression, and from all unrighteousness, and from all sin, and from all godlessness: and all the uncleanness that is wrought upon the earth destroy from off the earth. And all the children of men shall become righteous, and all nations shall offer adoration and shall praise Me, and all shall worship Me. And the earth shall be cleansed from all defilement, and from all sin, and from all punishment, and from all torment, and I will never again send (them) upon it from generation to generation and for ever.
Thanks, Midi! Bonita can do a comparative analysis of the two Enoch ix supplied, one renders “heaven’ and the other “sky.”
BB
The following PDF attachment is the copy of the Hebrew Books of Enoch, where if one inspects the first book the writing takes on a style like the Islamic Koran where when the “Holy One,” is mentioned it is addressed with “blessed be He,” so, it might be considered that the Koran may have come from this text.
Sorry about that the file was to large, I will need to edit the file into smaller parts, but in order to do this I will need to get on my other computer, and attach it later to this post.
The following PDF attachment is the copy of the Hebrew Books of Enoch, where if one inspects the first book the writing takes on a style like the Islamic Koran where when the “Holy One,” is mentioned it is addressed with “blessed be He,” so, it might be considered that the Koran may have come from this text. Sorry about that the file was to large, I will need to edit the file into smaller parts, but in order to do this I will need to get on my other computer, and attach it later to this post.
I encountered the same problem, Midi. What I did to get around it was do a screen-grab using Windows built in Snipping-tool. If you have windows 7 or later then you should have Snipping-tool app.
BB
Bradly if after reading the history of St. Lucifer you do not see parallels with the story of Lucifer presented in TUB then we will have to agree to disagree.
Me here: I did not say there are no parallels or I meant to say none jumped out at me – which is to say I look forward to those that are apparent to you. I am also very interested in early church history (but claim no scholarship) and also the more ancient records and scriptures as well. It is enjoyable to learn about new things or old things in new ways. I am always willing to agree to disagree….but I did not intend to be disagreeable or argumentative. Thanks for your patience and persistence. I do find the subject of “heresy” interesting and the manner in which mortals determine it and deal with it compared to the UB Lucifer’s heresy.
Bradly if after reading the history of St. Lucifer you do not see parallels with the story of Lucifer presented in TUB then we will have to agree to disagree. Me here: I did not say there are no parallels or I meant to say none jumped out at me – which is to say I look forward to those that are apparent to you. I am also very interested in early church history (but claim no scholarship) and also the more ancient records and scriptures as well. It is enjoyable to learn about new things or old things in new ways. I am always willing to agree to disagree….but I did not intend to be disagreeable or argumentative. Thanks for your patience and persistence. I do find the subject of “heresy” interesting and the manner in which mortals determine it and deal with it compared to the UB Lucifer’s heresy.
Give me some time, Bradly. Soon I will present side by side comparison of elements from the two histories that I think parallel.
BB
Brooklyn_born wrote: Yes it does but you must keep that statement within the context of how Hebrews viewed messengers who descended from the skies. These were Holy beings or superhumans who dwell atop mountains. When you read “shamayim” in Hebrew scripture it is in reference to the skies above mountains, including the mountains.Which goes to my point that if a heavenly being is in the sky, that being is not material unless the being is an alien flying in a UFO, something that more than a few people actually believe in.
Brooklyn_born wrote: I do not see how you could conclude that way. These ‘beings’ were able to interact literally/materially with humans. There are many examples of this in scripture.Yes, they did interact, but not always as material beings. The angel of God was inside a burning bush at one time, if you recall. At times God revealed himself only to Moses, others present could not see him, which means that God was NOT a discernible material being. Furthermore, the Jews believed in the Shekinah, the spirit of God, a concept which evolved over the centuries, but no one could see the Shekinah. In other words, there was no corporality.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Assume that that is true, how does it pertain to Abraham and the revelation given to him? Abraham lived 4kya, before there was a Greek model of Heaven.Recall that the Hebrew scriptures were rewritten during the post-exilic period which preceded Hellenism only by two centuries. While in captivity the Jews were influenced by Babylonian cosmology which included a plurality of heavens. In fact, the word shamayim is either dual or plural, NOT singular. Hebrew cosmology was even further developed by contact with Greek philosophy which resulted in an evolution of the concept of heaven and hell as part of the afterlife.
Brooklyn_born wrote:The English will supply “angel” in place of “malak.” If you place the Greek/Latin interpretation of angel on “malak” then you’ve effectively deviated from the interpretation of the original tongue. Let me state for the record, celestial angels are real and TUB establishes that fact. My point to you and others is the Hebrews had not developed their understanding to such a degree that they could yield that kind of interpretation of third epochal revelation.If the Hebrews did not understand the concept of angels, then why did they put cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant?
כְּרוּב kerub {ker-oob’} an order of angelic beings, an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant, the chariot of Jehovah.
Brooklyn_born wrote: As I explained previously Hebrews did not have a celestial concept. They placed Heaven at the summit of mountains where the sky meets Earth.Surely you understand that there was an evolution in Hebrew theology. The dwelling place of God may have begun in mountains and mountain tops, but it evolved into heaven and the heaven of heavens. If you recall, Yahweh was the god of the southern Palestinian tribes and he resided on Mount Horeb, a volcano. Around the time of Abraham, El Elyon replaced Yahweh. El Elyon, was the Most High God of heaven taught by Melchizedek (The Third Epochal Revelation). Then, at the time of Moses, Elohim appeared as trinitarian god which the Hebrews didn’t really begin to adopt until the Babylonian captivity. (Read Paper 96 for more info)
Gen 14:18 ûmal’Kiy–tzedeqmelekh’ shälëm hôtziy lechemwäyäyin w’hû khohën l’ël el’yôn
Brooklyn_born wrote: In this photo of Enoch vi you see angels descend from “Heaven” onto the summit before fully descending to Earth where they engage humanity. I am supplying this part of Enoch to demonstrate that the Hebrews (and their ancestors – Enoch) viewed angels as beings who have their dwelling atop mountains (as well as inside), which they considered heaven.Recall that Enoch 1 was written about 300BC. By then the Jews had a complex cosmology influenced by both the Babylonians and the Greeks. There were several heavens. In Enoch xii:4 (xii:5 in the Ethiopian translation) we are told that the Watchers left the high heaven, the holy and eternal place. The high and eternal heaven was not a material place with material beings inside, or on top of, mountains. To stipulate a high heaven, there must have been an understanding that there is also a low heaven, more than one. To stipulate an eternal place, the author must have understood immortality and non-corporality. And why are you using an English translation of Enoch? I thought you were adamant about text in the original language.
Which goes to my point that if a heavenly being is in the sky, that being is not material unless the being is an alien flying in a UFO, something that more than a few people actually believe in.I don’t get that. The Hebrews believed that God and his angels were made of “spirit” substances they called “ruach” and “neshamah” which literally mean wind or breath.Yes, they did interact, but not always as material beings. The angel of God was inside a burning bush at one time, if you recall.Here is the scripture in question in its original tongue:————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-“V’yera malakh YHVH elav b’labat esh m’itokh h’sene v’yar v’ehine h’sene boer b’esh v’h’sene einen’u ukal.”————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-Transation:—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————“And appeared YHVH’s [divine] messenger to him as a flame [of] fire, from [the] midst [of] the burning bush, and looked [he] [at] the bush [that] burned in fire, and the bush was not consumed.”—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————Bonita, Moses interpreted the flame as the angel itself because of its unusual or supernatural quality which prevented it from burning up the bush. This is a literal or material being in the form of one of nature’s elements.At times God revealed himself only to Moses, others present could not see him, which means that God was NOT a discernible material being.When God appeared invisibly it was in his purest form which Hebrews understood to be the wind or breath.Furthermore, the Jews believed in the Shekinah, the spirit of God, a concept which evolved over the centuries, but no one could see the Shekinah. In other words, there was no corporality.I explained in an earlier post, God and his angels manifest corporeally or as the natural elements. When God or his angels is invisible, it is in the form of wind or breath.Recall that the Hebrew scriptures were rewritten during the post-exilic period which preceded Hellenism only by two centuries. While in captivity the Jews were influenced by Babylonian cosmology which included a plurality of heavens.Yes but it is not recorded in their scripture. Remember Judeo priests viewed anything outside temple doctrine as paganism. So while it is true that foreign beliefs made their way into daily Jewish life, it was forbidden and many Jews were punished for practicing such.In fact, the word shamayim is either dual or plural, NOT singular. Hebrew cosmology was even further developed by contact with Greek philosophy which resulted in an evolution of the concept of heaven and hell as part of the afterlife.Shamayim is a word Jews used to denote loftiness; from the skies and mountain summits of daylight to the constellations visible at night fall. I do not dispute that their cosmology was influenced by Greek philosophy. But I think you may be ignoring the fact that Jews at times reconfigured certain foreign belief systems to conform to their own.If the Hebrews did not understand the concept of angels, then why did they put cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant? כְּרוּב kerub {ker-oob’} an order of angelic beings, an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant, the chariot of Jehovah.I never said they had no concept of angel if that is what you are implying. My position is that the Jews concept of angel was not the non-corporeal one associated with Christianity. The concept angel is rooted in the material world, whether they come as corporeal super-beings or as air moving through wind currents or as the procession of Heavenly bodies.Surely you understand that there was an evolution in Hebrew theology. The dwelling place of God may have begun in mountains and mountain tops, but it evolved into heaven and the heaven of heavens. If you recall, Yahweh was the god of the southern Palestinian tribes and he resided on Mount Horeb, a volcano. Around the time of Abraham, El Elyon replaced Yahweh. El Elyon, was the Most High God of heaven taught by Melchizedek (The Third Epochal Revelation). Then, at the time of Moses, Elohim appeared as trinitarian god which the Hebrews didn’t really begin to adopt until the Babylonian captivity. (Read Paper 96 for more info)Gen 14:18ûmal’Kiy–tzedeqmelekh’shälëmhôtziylechemwäyäyinw’hûkhohënl’ëlel’yôn
Brooklyn_born wrote: In this photo of Enoch vi you see angels descend from “Heaven” onto the summit before fully descending to Earth where they engage humanity. I am supplying this part of Enoch to demonstrate that the Hebrews (and their ancestors – Enoch) viewed angels as beings who have their dwelling atop mountains (as well as inside), which they considered heaven.Recall that Enoch 1 was written about 300BC. By then the Jews had a complex cosmology influenced by both the Babylonians and the Greeks. There were several heavens. In Enoch xii:4 (xii:5 in the Ethiopian translation) we are told that the Watchers left the high heaven, the holy and eternal place.
I am sure their concept of Heaven evolved over time but it is not reflected in scripture. Dead sea scrolls use the same language found in Haftorah and various other Judeo scripture read in Synagogue. I attempted to show you that these angelic beings and God were understood by Hebrews to exist within lofty places of the material plane, be it atop mountains as corporeal beings, in the sky as wind/air beings or among the stars (the more rare of the three).The high and eternal heaven was not a material place with material beings inside, or on top of, mountains. To stipulate a high heaven, there must have been an understanding that there is also a low heaven, more than one. To stipulate an eternal place, the author must have understood immortality and non-corporality. And why are you using an English translation of Enoch? I thought you were adamant about text in the original language.I can not read Ethiopic (Ge’ez) so I am handicapped by English translations of Enoch. But I do know Heavens at times is translated as sky in several places in that codex.BB
Brooklyn_born wrote: I don’t get that. The Hebrews believed that God and his angels were made of “spirit” substances they called “ruach” and “neshamah” which literally mean wind or breath.Okay, then why did you say the following in post #11076: These emissaries of God, according to the Hebrews, were literal to our plain of existence; they are material beings existing within the elements of the material world. What do you mean by material beings? Can a material being be made of wind or breath?
Brooklyn_born wrote: Bonita, Moses interpreted the flame as the angel itself because of its unusual or supernatural quality which prevented it from burning up the bush. This is a literal or material being in the form of one of nature’s elements.The flame was figurative, a nonliteral representation of an unseen, nonmaterial, nonphysical non-corporeal entity. So why did you say that non-corporeality was foreign to the Jews in post #11047? A flame is non-corporeal, nor is the wind or breath corporeal.
The wind, or breath (ruach and neshema) are invisible, nonliteral and nonmaterial, We know that the Jews understood that the “breath of God,” the neshema, was capable of providing an understanding of God’s ways as proved in Job, where Elihu says, :“But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.” This is clear evidence that the ruach and neshema, along with the nefesh, were conceived as part of the soul of man, that part of man capable of understanding God’s ways. Neshama means breath, ruach means wind and nefesh means rest. The Hebrews believed that God exhaled his breath (neshama), which left his lips and traveled as a wind (ruach) finally coming to rest (nefesh) within the human vessel as the soul. The neshama is the part of the soul closest to God, the nefesh is the aspect of God’s spirit residing in the body and the ruach binds man to his spiritual source. The neshama is affected by thought, the ruach by word and nefesh by deed. Hence prayer and good deeds enables one’s soul to return to God’s breath (neshama) in the heavens.
Brooklyn_born wrote: I explained in an earlier post, God and his angels manifest corporeally or as the natural elements. When God or his angels is invisible, it is in the form of wind or breath.But again, wind and breath is non-corporeal and you clearly stated in post #11047 that non-corporeality was foreign to the Jews.Yes but it is not recorded in their scripture. Remember Judeo priests viewed anything outside temple doctrine as paganism. So while it is true that foreign beliefs made their way into daily Jewish life, it was forbidden and many Jews were punished for practicing such.
If Judeo priests viewed anything outside the temple doctrine as paganism, then why did they tolerate the Pharisees? Perhaps you’re thinking about the immediate post-exilic period when the scribe Ezra proclaimed that unless the Jews re-established their state of national righteousness, God would abandon Israel, resulting in further conquests and calamities. That age during the return from exile was one of religious extremism designed to maintain the so-called Covenant with God. Ezra promised that the nation of Israel would prosper if they adhered to divine law laid down in Torah by Moses. At that time contact with non-Hebrews (pagans), and especially marriage to foreigners was forbidden as it would break the Covenant. In fact, that is why many inter-married couples left for Samaria where the priest did accept them, and thus began an age-long feud. The following is taken from something I wrote on the old, old forum:
The history of Palestine can be divided up into five phases: 1.) Persian; 2.) Greek; 3.) Hasmonean; 4.) Roman; and, 5.) Herodian. The Persian period is from 538 B.C. to 330 B.C. and begins with Cyrus the Great allowing the Israelites to return to their homeland and this is the period when Ezra appears as a second Moses. This apparent need of the Hebrews to go back and rely so heavily on the original prophets, priests and kings did not happen in a vacuum. The Babylonian captivity and exile, in the minds of the Jews, was much like the exile in Egypt. God delivered them from that bondage and he would do so again with another Moses. The scribes of this period had only one goal, rehabilitation of the Jewish nation, which also meant the Temple cult and return to the law of Moses. Such a feat would require heroic legendary figures much like King David and his temple building, and the nazarite son, Solomon, who were responsible for the glory days of ancient Jewish civilization.
But abiding by the law did not have the desired result, hence the evolution of messianic dreams of apocalyptic rebirth. It was during that Hasmodian period that two major parties developed in Judaism, the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The Pharisees chose to reinterpret scripture, but they were not punished for practicing what they believed by the priestly Sadducees. In fact, the Pharisees were the most loved by the people; they built the community synagogues; they taught in the synagogue schools; they collected a wide variety of literature, including apocrypha, in their synagogue libraries. The Pharisees were non literalists, they believed in interpretation of the law, they also adopted many of the Persian, Babylonian and Greek philosophies and taught them in their synagogues without punishment.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Shamayim is a word Jews used to denote loftiness; from the skies and mountain summits of daylight to the constellations visible at night fall. I do not dispute that their cosmology was influenced by Greek philosophy. But I think you may be ignoring the fact that Jews at times reconfigured certain foreign belief systems to conform to their own.Yes . . . they call that evolution of thought, something I’ve been saying and trying to explain all along. Jewish beliefs and concepts were not static. In fact, we are told that the Book of Psalms is a record of the varying concepts of God stretching over time from about 1000 BC to 600 BC, right before the Babylonian exile, and that it depicts all phases of the conception of God. In other words, an evolution of thought concerning Deity.
96:7.3 No collection of religious writings gives expression to such a wealth of devotion and inspirational ideas of God as the Book of Psalms. And it would be very helpful if, in the perusal of this wonderful collection of worshipful literature, consideration could be given to the source and chronology of each separate hymn of praise and adoration, bearing in mind that no other single collection covers such a great range of time. This Book of Psalms is the record of the varying concepts of God entertained by the believers of the Salem religion throughout the Levant and embraces the entire period from Amenemope to Isaiah. In the Psalms God is depicted in all phases of conception, from the crude idea of a tribal deity to the vastly expanded ideal of the later Hebrews, wherein Yahweh is pictured as a loving ruler and merciful Father.
Brooklyn_born wrote: I never said they had no concept of angel if that is what you are implying. My position is that the Jews concept of angel was not the non-corporeal one associated with Christianity. The concept angel is rooted in the material world, whether they come as corporeal super-beings or as air moving through wind currents or as the procession of Heavenly bodies.Here’s what you said: “Concept of “angel” is not supported in Hebrew scripture. They had no concept of non-material beings or entities existing outside the elements that make up the physical world.”
And you also said this: “Angel is a Christian term and concept foreign to Hebrews; Hebrews however believed in “Ha Malakim,”correctly translated as ‘The Messengers.’ The term angel carries Christian baggage, for instance, non-corporeality, which is foreign to Hebrews. These emissaries of God, according to the Hebrews, were literal to our plain of existence; they are material beings existing within the elements of the material world.”
You said that the concept of angel is not supported in Hebrew scripture. Now you say that you never said that the Hebrews had no concept of angel. Which one is it? Then you say that non-corporeality is foreign to Hebrews. So why isn’t wind non-corporeal? Corporeal means having a body, and the last time I checked, wind does not have a body, nor have I ever seen a burning bush with a body. BB, you’re not making sense to me. But in a weird sort of way, I think we’re actually getting closer and closer to saying the same thing.
Brooklyn_born wrote: I am sure their concept of Heaven evolved over time but it is not reflected in scripture.I can’t agree with that. The evolved concept of heaven is most definitely reflected in scripture. In Genesis heaven is depicted as a “firmament,” a tangible bowl-like structure, a solid dome, separating the waters of the earth from the waters of the skies. Later, in Exodus Moses makes contact with the God on mountain tops where the heavens, no longer solid, actually make contact with the earth. Then, in Ezekiel there are visionary ascents to a new dimension where God sits on a heavenly throne, high and lifted up, a kingdom of righteousness. This can be compared to similar visions in Daniel and Micaiah of heavenly courts of the highest heaven, thus the concept of a highest authority above the material realm. Then there is the well known Elijah who was taken up into this high heaven to be with God, a corporeal being disappearing up into heaven on a chariot of fire within a whirlwind. Even in Genesis we hear about Enoch walking with God, (so there’s a conflict in concept right there from the onset). In Malachi we hear of a promise that Elijah will return to earth, suggesting that he is alive in heaven walking with God. Finally, in Daniel there is mention of the righteous dead being resurrected and “shining like the stars forever and ever,” suggesting the idea of immortality of humans in heaven. In the Wisdom of Solomon souls are promised immortal life, a final ascent into heaven. This is a far cry from the solid dome of heaven in Genesis which resided above and apart from the earth, or in Exodus where heaven touched earth on mountain tops, a place where only special and chosen people could access it, to finally the acceptance that heaven is immortal and a place where not only God, the king on his throne, resided with heavenly hosts, but a place where all righteous humans can also reside. That’s an evolution in my book and without citing explicit references, I think you can agree that there is an overall expansion and progression of the Hebrew concept of heaven reflected within scripture.
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