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I hope people at least took a read of the history before formulating their arguments.
Do you think we’re that ignorant? Honestly BB! Yes it was read, along with many other sites on the subject. I think the bigger question is, why aren’t we discussing St. Lucifer’s passionate opposition to Arianism? How does his attitude jibe with the Fifth Epochal Revelation? Since you are so knowledgeable on the subject, why don’t you explain it to us?
Hebrews believed in divine messengers who were ‘superhuman’ like in nature. They had no concept of non-corporeal or celestial beings.
Superhuman means NON-human ABOVE the level of human existence. The Jews had trouble with the concept of separating their own souls from their bodies,
I used the term ‘superhuman,’ first, to make a distinction between the malakim (angels) and ishim (men). Second, superhuman is having greater abilities than human while retaining human qualities. Samson would be an example of a superhuman, for your edification.
Jews had no concept of some immaterial component or aspect to human self. All of their religious ideas were grounded in the material plain. I think you are imposing bias, Christian belief on their religion, Bonita. Please prove with original scripture your claim. In any event, Hebrews believed blood was a very vital component to their existence as fleshly beings, and what is in the blood doubly vital. That element in blood they refer to as ‘nefesh,’ which loosely translated is “soul.” In the conventional sense Hebrews did not believe in a soul.
but they were well acquainted with the Persian concept of non-corporeal entities or spirits that could not be seen, yet existed to take over minds and bodies.
That is a foreign concept later adopted by those who strayed from Judaism.
How would the Jews be able to accept the notion of possession by evil spirits and the ability to cast them out of the body if they did not have a concept of non-corporeality of spirits?
Well… don’t psychiatrist deal with concepts similar yet do not believe in spirits?
They must have been quite willing to accept the idea that the evil spirit was non-corporeal if it could move in and out of bodies and still continue to exist.
The idea did not originate with them. Could they have adopted such concepts along the way? Of course! they were influenced by their colonizers. But it is not recorded in their scripture.
BB
I hope people at least took a read of the history before formulating their arguments.
Do you think we’re that ignorant? Honestly BB! Yes it was read, along with many other sites on the subject. I think the bigger question is, why aren’t we discussing St. Lucifer’s passionate opposition to Arianism? How does his attitude jibe with the Fifth Epochal Revelation? Since you are so knowledgeable on the subject, why don’t you explain it to us?
Well, Bonita, different arguments outside the original topic have been presented so it does beg the question whether or not people clicked on the link. As for the two doctrines I mentioned and their connection to TUB, I am still researching that. Also, no, I do not think anyone is ignorant, and when did I say I was knowledgeable on Latin Church history, Bonita?
BB
The onus is on you to present a scripture seeing as you are the one challenging what I had put forth.
I did supply the original language for you with the link. I cannot reproduce those images on this forum, you’ll have to go to the site if you want to read them. Or, you can accept the scholarly interpretations I provided. Your choice. And I know you are proud of your 20 years of study, but I have more than a decade on you . . . sorry.
I am not doing your work for you, Bonita. You challenged my position so you need to supply the original scripture and your translation. And please allow me to revise my statement: I have 20 years of QUALITY research and study on this particular subject
BB
I am not doing your work for you, Bonita. You challenged my position so you need to supply the original scripture and your translation. And please allow me to revise my statement: I have 20 years of QUALITY research and study on this particular subject
You’re being rather confrontational BB. And to suggest that my study and research on the subject is not QUALITY is just plain nasty.
Maybe, since your scholarship has more quality than mine, you could tell me how to reproduce text in the original language on this forum. I don’t know how to do that, which is why I referred you to the link. Perhaps you could help me and reproduce the texts in the original language for Enoch viii. 1, ix. 6, x. 4–6, liv. 5, lxxxviii and 4Q266-273; 4Q390; 5Q12; 6Q15; 11Q12, then we can discuss our personal interpretations of them.
I am not doing your work for you, Bonita. You challenged my position so you need to supply the original scripture and your translation. And please allow me to revise my statement: I have 20 years of QUALITY research and study on this particular subject
Confrontational? Are you kidding me, Bonita? Do you even take conscious of what you say to people? I made no direct or indirect disparaging remark towards you. However, this is what you said to me…
“And I know you are proud of your 20 years of study, but I have more than a decade on you . . . sorry.”
Seriously, Bonita? Who is being confrontational? Certainly not me!! Not in my character.
And to suggest that my study and research on the subject is not QUALITY is just plain nasty.
I made that statement to defend myself against your personal attack!
Maybe, since your scholarship has more quality than mine, you could tell me how to reproduce text in the original language on this forum. I don’t know how to do that, which is why I referred you to the link. Perhaps you could help me and reproduce the texts in the original language for Enoch viii. 1, ix. 6, x. 4–6, liv. 5, lxxxviii and 4Q266-273; 4Q390; 5Q12; 6Q15; 11Q12, then we can discuss our personal interpretations of them.
I am not reproducing anything for you, since you seem to think it is a contest of wits. I leave you to that reality to amuse yourself in. I am off to the gym. Enjoy the rest of your day, Bonita.
BB
Also, no, I do not think anyone is ignorant, and when did I say I was knowledgeable on Latin Church history, Bonita?
Oh! So you’re not an expert on the subject then? Those 20 years of QUALITY study and research did not include this topic, is that right? Well, my study may not be high quality like yours, but I do know something about Arianism and why Latin Lucifer was passionately opposed to it. Don’t you think that has something to do with this topic? If the midwayers wanted to use the Latin Lucifer to illustrate the war in heaven, then perhaps it behooves us to study some of the writings of the Latin Lucifer in the original Latin.
- Moriundum esse pro Dei filio
- De non parcendo in Deum delinquentibus
- Quia absentem nemo debet iudicare nec damnare, sive De Athanasio
Samson would be an example of a superhuman, for your edification.
That’s only one meaning of the word, for your edification. Superhuman also means divine, heavenly, otherworldly, unearthly, paranormal. Just using the dictionary there for my own edification.
The idea did not originate with them. Could they have adopted such concepts along the way? Of course! they were influenced by their colonizers. But it is not recorded in their scripture.
Do you know anything about the Pharisees and Essenes? They were REAL Jews. They worshipped in REAL synagogues and read REAL scriptures. Maybe you don’t consider them QUALITY Jews?
I am not reproducing anything for you, since you seem to think it is a contest of wits. I leave you to that reality to amuse yourself in. I am off to the gym. Enjoy the rest of your day, Bonita.
Well that’s unfriendly. I asked you for help. I don’t see it as a contest of wits. You asked for the original translation and I said I don’t know how to reproduce it. I gave you a link so you could read it yourself and you ridiculed that effort. Then I gave you specific texts asking you to reproduce them so we can talk about them, and you now ridicule that too. Maybe you can explain to me how to reproduce those texts in the original language then, so I can do it myself? I can’t really give you what you want without your help, or someone else’s. So, it seems to me that you’re the one hindering the flow of conversation here. I get the distinct impression that you think my knowledge on the subject is not of the same QUALITY as yours and therefore not worth your effort. Sorry to disappoint you.
BB – I’m curious about the parallels you find between the narrative of the rebellion and the church history you cite. I have spoken my piece that I think epochal revelation, if it is indeed epochal revelation, needs to be factual and as clearly presented as possible and, also, that I find the story as written far more important than the church history you cite. Enough said. But I have not read anything yet that details how the story of celestial rebellion might really be about this creedal dispute in early Christianity.
The reading I did at Wikipedia from your link exposes a common truth I think in such mortal, interpretive disputes – both sides were half right!! Jesus/Michael is A son of God but not THE son of God as the third person of Deity. The argument as to whether THE Son of God is a member of original trinity (a concept I still cannot grasp) or not, presumes in this case, that Michael/Jesus is a member of the Trinity itself. The UB says no. Michael is one of an order of Sonship – and it is that order that is the creator of physical time and space creation. Now that little factoide would really blow the creedal doors off its hinges!!
That’s one of the things I love most about the UB…..how magnificently it enlarges God and expands His creation into so many places and so many beings, all integrated in process and purpose. A Divine Scale of Reality. I have never read a single thing by a single author that does not reduce god and diminish the universe to an earth centric and mundane irrelevancy.
Still, it might make an interesting discussion about the parallels you perceive. My reading of your links does not bring forth any such connection….or not yet anyway. But I’m willing to discover and consider those as you present them. As time allows…..Peace.
Perhaps you could help me and reproduce the texts in the original language for Enoch viii. 1, ix. 6, x. 4–6, liv. 5, lxxxviii and 4Q266-273; 4Q390; 5Q12; 6Q15; 11Q12, then we can discuss our personal interpretations of them.
Regarding the “original language for Enoch …” it was assumed to be “Aramaic” only because of the “Fragments of Qumran Cave 4” found to be in Aramaic, but “The original Aramaic version was lost until the Dead Sea fragements were discovered.”
The most common versions in print come from the Greek translation found in Egypt. But if you would like the English translations, I can provide copies and text, but for the most part most come from the Oxford University Press, which I also have the hardcover copy, which was a special order from Oxford, back in the late 1980’s. If necessary I could find my copy and scan some of the pages but that would go against their copyright. But I do have most of all the translated copies in PDF format.
Brooklyn_born wrote: Angel is a Christian term and concept foreign to Hebrews; Hebrews however believed in “Ha Malakim,”correctly translated as ‘The Messengers.’ The term angel carries Christian baggage, for instance, non-corporeality, which is foreign to Hebrews. These emissaries of God, according to the Hebrews, were literal to our plain of existence; they are material beings existing within the elements of the material world.How about this from Genesis (hope I reproduced it properly, copy/paste is doing weird things on this forum):
וַיִּקְרָא אֵלָיו מַלְאַ יְהוָה מִן־הַשָּׁמַיִםוַיֹּאמֶר אַבְרָהָם אַבְרָהָם וַיֹּאמֶר הִנֵּנִיwaYiq’rä ëläywmal’akh’ y’hwäh min–haSHämayim waYomer av’rähämav’rähäm waYomer hiNëniy
Doesn’t it say that the mal’akh called out from shamayim? That would mean that the messenger of y’hwah was not literal to Abraham’s plain of existence, not a material being within the elements of the material world, as you say. Shamayim, from 300 BC on, was similar to the Greek model of seven heavens with God residing in the eighth and highest level of the cosmos. I don’t see that as being part of the material world, as you say. And why would Abraham be so impressed by this call from the heavens if it was just another person and not something “other worldly”?
But if you would like the English translations, . . .
Thanks Midi, but BB was adamant about having the original language text. I don’t think he’s much interested in the English translation.
Oh! So you’re not an expert on the subject then? Those 20 years of QUALITY study and research did not include this topic, is that right?No. My 20 some odd years of study pertained to Jewish scripture, not Latin Church history. I know enough Jewish scripture to know none portray “angels” in the same context you’d find in Christianity (celestial or non-corporeal). Bonita, I never claimed to be an expert in anything. I really don’t know where you are getting this perception of me.Well, my study may not be high quality like yours,I am going to assume you are saying that in jest because I did not compare your research against mine to see whose is the best. I made the declaration that I had studied judeo scripture for 20 years and that I had never come across scripture suggesting angels were non-corporeal.but I do know something about Arianism and why Latin Lucifer was passionately opposed to it.The early church doctrines is new to me and is something I toyed with in an attempt to expand the original topic. I am open to learning.Don’t you think that has something to do with this topic? If the midwayers wanted to use the Latin Lucifer to illustrate the war in heaven, then perhaps it behooves us to study some of the writings of the Latin Lucifer in the original Latin.Bonita, that is what I was saying from the jump My goal was to introduce readership to something I stumbled onto and perhaps we could make sense of it within TUB context. But it takes an open mind to approach this topic. Preconceive notions only serve to prejudge it. Regrettably this thread went all over the place, not a big deal though.Out of curiosity, before I posted this thread, had anyone come across the idea that St. Lucifer and Lucifer of Satania may have some connection, historically?- Moriundum esse pro Dei filio
- De non parcendo in Deum delinquentibus
- Quia absentem nemo debet iudicare nec damnare, sive De Athanasi
If you would like to educate me on those three arguments, I am open as this particular topic is new to me. Do you see any connections between those and Lucifer’s manifesto?
BB
How about this from Genesis (hope I reproduced it properly, copy/paste is doing weird things on this forum):
וַיִּקְרָאאֵלָיומַלְאַיְהוָהמִן־הַשָּׁמַיִםוַיֹּאמֶראַבְרָהָםאַבְרָהָםוַיֹּאמֶרהִנֵּנִיwaYiq’räëläywmal’akh’y’hwähmin–haSHämayimwaYomerav’rähämav’rähämwaYomerhiNëniy
I will clean up the sentence you provided:
“V’yikra elav malakh YHVH min h’shamayim v’yomer abraham abraham v’yomer h’neni”
And here is the translation:
“And [did] call onto him the messenger of Yahveh from the skies and said Abraham, Abraham. And he said, here I am.”
Doesn’t it say that the mal’akh called out from shamayim?
Yes it does but you must keep that statement within the context of how Hebrews viewed messengers who descended from the skies. These were Holy beings or superhumans who dwell atop mountains. When you read “shamayim” in Hebrew scripture it is in reference to the skies above mountains, including the mountains.
That would mean that the messenger of y’hwah was not literal to Abraham’s plain of existence, not a material being within the elements of the material world, as you say.
I do not see how you could conclude that way. These ‘beings’ were able to interact literally/materially with humans. There are many examples of this in scripture.
Shamayim, from 300 BC on, was similar to the Greek model of seven heavens with God residing in the eighth and highest level of the cosmos.
Assume that that is true, how does it pertain to Abraham and the revelation given to him? Abraham lived 4kya, before there was a Greek model of Heaven.
And why would Abraham be so impressed by this call from the heavens if it was just another person and not something “other worldly”?
They possessed unusual, supernatural abilities.
BB
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