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We are told that we must discover what is value and what has value.
What would you say about philosophy? Is it or does it have?
with a broad stroke of the pen I’d say that God is value and everything else has value.
but there must be lots of stuff inbetween that we can philosophize about, no?
Thanks all for such valuable contributions! Another aspect to consider is whether one is surfing the cosmic intuitions with the spirit of truth, or still learning to juggle adjutant-animated mortal concepts. Thus philosophy may be experiencible as different phenomena, depending on circle progress?
And thanks to Mara for reminding us of Rodan’s wonderful declaration:
“My philosophy gave me the urge to search for the realities of true attainment, the goal of maturity. But my urge was impotent; my search lacked driving power; my quest suffered from the absence of certainty of directionization. And these deficiencies have been abundantly supplied by this new gospel of Jesus, with its enhancement of insights, elevation of ideals, and settledness of goals. Without doubts and misgivings I can now wholeheartedly enter upon the eternal venture.” (1775.1, 160:1.15)
For me, this highlights a crucial issue: if we don’t know where we’re heading or why, we have somehow to stir up sufficient motivation to keep going. But Rodan articulates what can happen when a soul is touched by truth: we can dare to launch, and find there is wind beneath our wings
Nigel
I’m not lamenting a poor educational system. Why get worked up about it? How fortunate a person is to be able to choose where their children go to school. Most people don’t have that option, either in the US or elsewhere. Things will improve over time. We’re informed about “the ideal state” and “education” and “philosophy” in this Paper:
71:7:2 In the ideal state, education continues throughout life, and philosophy sometime becomes the chief pursuit of its citizens. The citizens of such a commonwealth pursue wisdom as an enhancement of insight into the significance of human relations, the meanings of reality, the nobility of values, the goals of living, and the glories of cosmic destiny..What is Jesus’ philosophy of living, his gospel of living, his wisdom of the living of the heavenly life while on earth by means of daily submission to the will of the heavenly Father? He did live his gospel as a way of life by actual experience in doing that which the Father in heaven showed him.130:2:2 At their inn there also lodged a merchant from Mongolia, and since this Far-Easterner talked Greek fairly well, Jesus had several long visits with him. This man was much impressed with Jesus‘philosophy of life and never forgot his words of wisdom regarding “the living of the heavenly life while on earth by means of daily submission to the will of the heavenly Father.” This merchant was a Taoist. . . ..His ordination discourse to the twelve constitutes his master philosophy of life.140:4:9 Without a worthy goal, life becomes aimless and unprofitable, and much unhappiness results. Jesus‘ discourse at the ordination of the twelve constitutes a master philosophy of life. Jesus exhorted his followers to exercise experiential faith. He admonished them not to depend on mere intellectual assent, credulity, and established authority..140:8:14 The family occupied the very center of Jesus‘ philosophy of life — here and hereafter. He based his teachings about God on the family, while he sought to correct the Jewish tendency to overhonor ancestors. He exalted family life as the highest human duty but made it plain that family relationships must not interfere with religious obligations. He called attention to the fact that the family is a temporal institution; that it does not survive death. Jesus did not hesitate to give up his family when the family ran counter to the Father’s will. He taught the new and larger brotherhood of man — the sons of God. In Jesus‘ time divorce practices were lax in Palestine and throughout the Roman Empire. He repeatedly refused to lay down laws regarding marriage and divorce, but many of Jesus‘ early followers had strong opinions on divorce and did not hesitate to attribute them to him. All of the New Testament writers held to these more stringent and advanced ideas about divorce except John Mark..140:10:5 The one characteristic of Jesus‘ teaching was that the morality of his philosophy originated in the personal relation of the individual to God — this very child-father relationship. Jesus placed emphasis on the individual, not on the race or nation. While eating supper, Jesus had the talk with Matthew in which he explained that the morality of any act is determined by the individual’s motive. Jesus‘ morality was always positive. The golden rule as restated by Jesus demands active social contact; the older negative rule could be obeyed in isolation. Jesus stripped morality of all rules and ceremonies and elevated it to majestic levels of spiritual thinking and truly righteous living..And Rodan expressed his search and discovery of the living gospel of Jesus which surly breathed life into his preconceived philosophy and to his destiny..160:1:15 My philosophy gave me the urge to search for the realities of true attainment, the goal of maturity. But my urge was impotent; my search lacked driving power; my quest suffered from the absence of certainty of directionization. And these deficiencies have been abundantly supplied by this new gospel of Jesus, with its enhancement of insights, elevation of ideals, and settledness of goals. Without doubts and misgivings I can now wholeheartedly enter upon the eternal venture..161:1:11 When Rodan heard these arguments, he said: “I am convinced. I will confess God as a person if you will permit me to qualify my confession of such a belief by attaching to the meaning of personality a group of extended values, such as superhuman, transcendent, supreme, infinite, eternal, final, and universal. I am now convinced that, while God must be infinitely more than a personality, he cannot be anything less. I am satisfied to end the argument and to accept Jesus as the personal revelation of the Father and the satisfaction of all unsatisfied factors in logic, reason, and philosophy.”Mighty fine group of quotes Mara. Didn’t realize philosophy appears in Part 4 so much, over 80 usages.
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Richard E Warren
We are told that we must discover what is value and what has value. What would you say about philosophy? Is it or does it have? with a broad stroke of the pen I’d say that God is value and everything else has value. but there must be lots of stuff inbetween that we can philosophize about, no?
Good questions all, Gene,
I would say philosophy is a conceptual system of naming and defining intangible values. The “transcendental” values, Truth, Beauty, Goodness are presented as God’s values by the authors. As I understand it, our souls are composed of the spirit values that we’ve personally built up over a lifetime decision by decision. That is what survives and rejoins the TA on mansonia.
Yes! Plenty, plenty to philosophize over. Thanks for the input/insight/questions.
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Richard E Warren
…Thus philosophy may be experiencible as different phenomena, depending on circle progress?
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…But Rodan articulates what can happen when a soul is touched by truth: we can dare to launch, and find there is wind beneath our wings.Excellent points well stated, Nigel!
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Richard E Warren
Gene wrote: We are told that we must discover what is value and what has value. What would you say about philosophy? Is it or does it have? with a broad stroke of the pen I’d say that God is value and everything else has value. but there must be lots of stuff inbetween that we can philosophize about, no?Yes, I brought this up a few pages back. We discussed the quote in question (100:3.3-7) on this forum last year, I think. At the time I wasn’t really sure how to interpret it, and I’ve been thinking about it ever since. My current thinking tells me that “that which IS value” has to do with relationships, either with God or with other personalities. What IS value is alive, changing and growing. “That which HAS value” is inert; it’s about things, facts, knowledge, stuff that is not alive yet more or less peripheral to and associated with personality relations. (There are a lot of people in this world who think things are more valuable than people, that the pleasure gained from the physical level of things, facts and knowledge is just as important as the pleasure gained from interpersonal relationships. )
But, the quote implies that things, facts and knowledge do have value, but the value they HAVE is only in relationship to personality. These “things” have to become integrated by personality and given meaning before they actually have any value, and their only value is within the relationship, that which IS value. Values always depend on relationships. Meanings are possessed by the individual, but values are shared. At least that’s they way I’m thinking about it today.
So then, my next question would be, what does this have to do with philosophy? Philosophy is the search for wisdom. Wisdom is the consciousness of the meaning of personality in all its relations with both things and other personalities (human and divine). Wisdom elevates experience with things, facts and knowledge to new levels of meaning as they become part of the relational experience of a given personality. That is, if it is the result of the spirit of wisdom doing the work within the mind of that personality.
36:5.12 7. The spirit of wisdom – the inherent tendency of all moral creatures towards orderly and progressive evolutionary advancement. This is the highest of the adjutants, the spirit co-ordinator and articulator of the work of all the others. This spirit is the secret of that inborn urge of mind creatures which initiates and maintains the practical and effective program of the ascending scale of existence; that gift of living things which accounts for their inexplicable ability to survive and, in survival, to utilize the co-ordination of all their past experience and present opportunities for the acquisition of all of everything that all of the other six mental ministers can mobilize in the mind of the organism concerned. Wisdom is the acme of intellectual performance. Wisdom is the goal of a purely mental and moral existence.
The spirit of wisdom is a wonderful mind ministry. I wrote a book on the Holy Spirit a while back which explains how the two work so sublimely together to elevate personality experience to the soul where meanings and values are sorted out, interpreted, spiritized and made actionable. I think true philosophy, a philosophy of living that discovers the type of wisdom which best correlates quantity and quality must utilize the spirit of wisdom as a gateway to spiritual insight and the soul’s powers of discrimination. Quantity would be “that which HAS value”, quality would be “that which IS value”. The best philosophy is one that discovers and recognizes this gateway to the soul where meanings can be interpreted and true values illuminated within the relationship between God and man then applied as fruits of the spirit to the life of that personality, where God and man can become one.
Anyway, I blabber on. Probably this needs editing too, in order to make it more understandable, if it is understandable at all. It’s a great topic to contemplate . . . many, many layers of thought to go through.
Wow, ask and receive.
wonderful insights, thank you so much.
likely not the appropriate place to ask but I’d love to read your book Bonita.
Gene wrote: . . . but I’d love to read your book Bonita.Oh jeez . . . I don’t think that’s possible. I self-published only one copy and then deep-sixed the manuscript. I could never find an editor or proof-reader with any interest in the subject. It was written for TUB readers, so a very limited audience . . . very limited since most of them have less than favorable opinions about my ideas. I actually lost interest in the whole thing long ago, but I did learn a lot while writing it which I try to share here and there, for what it’s worth. It was fun, but it was basically an exercise in futility. Sorry.
Aristotle is perhaps the most well known of all philosophers in the West, alongside Confucius in the East.
A reviewer of classical philosopher Werner Jaeger blogged this about Aristotle:
…Aristotle knew that logic and science “can never attain to that irresistible force of inner conviction which arises from the inspired presentiments of the soul.” Jaeger writes that Aristotle “spoke more beautifully and more profoundly about the personal and emotional side of all religious life” than anyone else in the ancient world.
“Aristotle derives the subjective conviction of God’s existence from two sources: from man’s experience of the inspired might of the soul … and from the sight of the starry heavens,” observes Jaeger.
Also writing on the subject of Aristotle’s religious convictions, Anton-Hermann Chroust says that for Aristotle “man’s belief in God and in God’s existence arises primarily from an innate spiritual and affirmative strength which in its spontaneous manifestations—in its complete independence from physical or psycho-physical factors—generates in man a spontaneous, free and joyous realization that there exists, and must exist, an invisible intelligent and omniscient Being that knows everything to perfection.”
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Appears Aristotle understood a great deal for a man of 24 centuries ago. His name appears once in the UB:…Xenophanes taught one God, but his deity concept was too pantheistic to be a personal Father to mortal man. Anaxagoras was a mechanist except that he did recognize a First Cause, an Initial Mind. Socrates and his successors, Plato and Aristotle, taught that virtue is knowledge; goodness, health of the soul; that it is better to suffer injustice than to be guilty of it, that it is wrong to return evil for evil, and that the gods are wise and good. Their cardinal virtues were: wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice…. (1079.3) 98:2.6
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Richard E Warren
Is this person a thinking philosopher, Rick?
Note her rationale.
Is this person a thinking philosopher, Rick?
Note her rationale.
Seems like a classic struggle between logic and intuition, Mark. What was your take? She might well like the UB!
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Richard E Warren
She’s convinced she’s wired to God. Its interesting she ran to Pew and other places for research and to Paschal for answers. At the end she admits she’s stuck between being a nonbeliever atheist and knowing she’s linked to God. I think she is looking for truth, beauty and goodness. She is attempting to reconcile her thoughts and conclusions; she’s “philosophying”, but is not happy with her philosophy of life.
Note this from the writer’s website: “Elizabeth received her Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy in 2011 from DePaul University,…….”
This gives us evidence to promote the struggle as good for helping people see.
She’s convinced she’s wired to God. Its interesting she ran to Pew and other places for research and to Paschal for answers. At the end she admits she’s stuck between being a nonbeliever atheist and knowing she’s linked to God. I think she is looking for truth, beauty and goodness. She is attempting to reconcile her thoughts and conclusions; she’s “philosophying”, but is not happy with her philosophy of life. Note this from the writer’s website: “Elizabeth received her Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy in 2011 from DePaul University,…….” This gives us evidence to promote the struggle as good for helping people see.
It hasn’t been so long since I was in her place (28 years), not finding satisfying answers, trapped in an awful and intractable ignorance. It’s really tough embracing evolved philosophy that is so fraught with human errors, misleading signposts, crippling ignorance, even Godlessness. God is obvious to most people, even if their skepticism and logic ask: Where’s the proof?
Most everyone, in their heart, knows the universe did not simply fall together. That fact nags at atheism, along with the existence of consciousness. Indicators of intelligent design are everywhere, beginning with these bodies and personalities we somehow came to inhabit.
There was a comment section. I posted this:
Elizabeth, if you’re still hungry for truth, you might have a look at The Urantia Book. I was in much the same situation as you before finding this truly exceptional tome. As a writer you will surely be amazed at the quality of the text, much better than I’ve read anywhere. The first 70 pages are a revelation of the reality, nature and character of God. The authority and clarity with which the authors speak is fascinating, and convincing. Ck it out, what’s to lose? http://www.urantia.org
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Richard E Warren
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