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Concept of “angel” is not supported in Hebrew scripture. They had no concept of non-material beings or entities existing outside the elements that make up the physical world.
Not sure where you get your information from BB, but that statement is untrue. During the Babylonian exile the Jews were exposed to many Persian theology of duality, good and evil, which further solidified the idea that God punishes sin and rewards righteousness. Combined with the Persian belief in the soul, dreams, visions, revelations, angels, the resurrection of the dead and a Judgment Day, a fragile structure of new beliefs began to take form. It also explains the reason why the rewritten history of the Jewish people took on such a fantastic, magical and mystical form during this period, and why it led to apocalypticism.
The idea of a Judgment Day, messiahs and delivery from evil eventually lead to the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 BC). This is the time when the scribes and priests split into two parties, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, and also when the Essenes appeared. Everyone knows that the Essenes specialized in teachings about angels. The Sadducees were strict fundamentalists who rejected any religious teachings that were not literally stipulated within the pages of the Pentateuch. The Pharisees, however, were quite willing to teach what they learned from the Persians: the validity of the resurrection of the dead, the afterlife, the immortality of the soul, fate, final judgment and the existence of angels and demons. The Sadducees and Pharisees were always at odds with one another. But, as you can see, all of this transpired long before the Christian Era and the appearance of a Saint Lucifer. The Jews did indeed have a concept of non-material beings. Only the hardcore fundamentalists denied it, and they were in the minority, becoming extinct with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
Revelation is validated ONLY by human experience. Personal religious experience is the phenomenon of autorevelation. It consists of two phases. First, value must be discovered within the human mind; second, the meaning of value must be revealed by the indwelling divine spirit. It’s a two step personality process including the both the creature and the Creator.
If you read the text with a mind not focused on discovering true value, and if you resist the enlightenment of truth by the indwelling Spirit, then you cannot personalize the Fifth Epochal Revelation, or any other revelation, in a manner that is autorevelatory. What you will get is something else, purely human and purely adjutant in quality. It may seem mysterious and enchanting to the adjutant mind, but it is not necessarily real or true. I think there is a tendency of the human mind to want to read text, which is pregnant with spiritual meaning, in such a way as to look for mystical, or hidden meanings. This is called allegory. Revelatory texts are not meant to be allegorical. Secret, hidden meanings are not part of revelation. Revelation is the recognition of reality and reality is not a mystical secret.
Revelation is:
(1007.1) 92:4.1 Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world’s history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man’s capacity of receptivity.
(1007.2) 92:4.2 But regardless of apparent connection or derivation, the religions of revelation are always characterized by a belief in some Deity of final value and in some concept of the survival of personality identity after death.
If revelation evolves and is progressive, then if “revelation is truth”, than truth also evolves and is progressive. Therefore, truth is dynamic, as is revelation, with the evolution in time. History or metaphysics is then subject to evolution through time and can only be assumed as truth when applied to the present. If the authors were not constructing a narrative based on historic stories, then why not narrate the actual truth instead of perceived stories.
However, being that the Urantia Book was edited by other than Celestial beings, where it also can be assumed that errors are forthcoming from this process, thereby making any literal acceptance at “‘face’ value” subject to figurative interpretation.
Every word and punctuation change or edit by humans is well documented and itemized Midi – the UB has not been edited by any mortal in the multiple ways the Bible has been rewritten to actually change the content and meaning. Most of such edits to the UB are corrections to the transcription process but the whole list is readily available:
http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/text-standardization?term=revisions#search-jump-result-0
All of the information presented can be taken from known text presented prior to the UB. Therefore, what new information about Lucifer, as presented in the UB, can you present that cannot be validated in known text from pre UB history.
This is a most peculiar assertion. Granted, the personage of Lucifer, Satan, Caligastia, etc. are not extensive as to individual stories or character (except as relates to the flaws which led to rebellion), but the history presented of the rebellion and the celestial status of these multiple characters has no other source prior to the UB that I am aware of. I look forward to your validation in known texts that describes these beings accurately and in detail as presented in the UB.
The importance of the historical presentation to me personally is the way in which the current and historical struggles on-planet came to be. I never did believe in a war in heaven or fallen angels as I could not fathom a God that would put up with such nonsense. I also could not understand why we seem so isolated and even abandoned to our self created fate. Now I know. Free will is universal and not just a mortal endowment and free will always provide potential for error and even sin itself. I already knew all choices have repurcussions but did not know that our state of affairs, on a planetary basis, is due to the rebellion and the default (I also did not believe in Adam and Eve except as the creation fable). Prior to the UB I had already determined for myself that it was simple human laziness and fear that cultivated the belief that sin was a result of “the devil made me do it” or that humans are stained by inherent evil and “the fall of man” primitivisms. But now I know the devil doesn’t make anyone choose or do anything….my free will is inviolate. As is Satan’s and Lucifer’s and all others in time and space. That can cause real trouble, with a capital T!!
The history given to us in the UB flows with complete logical harmony and consistency and illuminates the causes of those effects we witness and know as our history here. I have never in all my truth seeking ever read of any explanation of our current and historical reality that even scratches the surface of the actual history as presented in such depth, integrating so many creatures and choices which led us to where we are now.
I look forward to the historical references you will be providing which detail Satan and Lucifer and their actions and the results of those choices upon humanity and in heaven itself. Indeed, I will be surprised if there is any human work which even differentiates these distinct individuals or speaks of our fallen prince – as the UB claims humanity has morphed all into one….the Devil. A singular arch nemesis as though Marvel morphed the Penguin, the Joker, and the Riddler into one character. Interesting discussion…..
e where you get your information from BB, but that statement is untrue. During the Babylonian exile the Jews were exposed to many Persian theology of duality, good and evil, which further solidified the idea that God punishes sin and rewards righteousness. Combined with the Persian belief in the soul, dreams, visions, revelations, angels, the resurrection of the dead and a Judgment Day, a fragile structure of new beliefs began to take form. It also explains the reason why the rewritten history of the Jewish people took on such a fantastic, magical and mystical form during this period, and why it led to apocalypticism. The idea of a Judgment Day, messiahs and delivery from evil eventually lead to the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 BC).You misunderstood what I wrote, Bonita, or I did not explain myself fully. Angel is a Christian term and concept foreign to Hebrews; Hebrews however believed in “Ha Malakim,”correctly translated as ‘The Messengers.’ The term angel carries Christian baggage, for instance, non-corporeality, which is foreign to Hebrews. These emissaries of God, according to the Hebrews, were literal to our plain of existence; they are material beings existing within the elements of the material world.This is the time when the scribes and priests split into two parties, the Sadducees and the Pharisees, and also when the Essenes appeared. Everyone knows that the Essenes specialized in teachings about angels. The Sadducees were strict fundamentalists who rejected any religious teachings that were not literally stipulated within the pages of the Pentateuch. The Pharisees, however, were quite willing to teach what they learned from the Persians: the validity of the resurrection of the dead, the afterlife, the immortality of the soul, fate, final judgment and the existence of angels of demons. The Sadducees and Pharisees were always at odds with one another. But, as you can see, all of this transpired long before the Christian Era and the appearance of a Saint Lucifer. The Jews did indeed have a concept of non-material beings. Only the hardcore fundamentalists denied it, and they were in the minority, becoming extinct with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.Moving forward in history, but particularly, in the run-up to Christianity, you begin to see an adoption of foreign beliefs among the Hebrews. (eg., Sadducee and Essense doctrine). I explained this in one of the preceding posts. The point is in Hebrew scripture there is no support of celestial beings, unless someone can show otherwise. Do you know of any Hebrew scripture supporting such idea?BB
The point is in Hebrew scripture there is no support of celestial beings, unless someone can show otherwise. Do you know of any Hebrew scripture supporting such idea?
What is your definition of scripture? If you’re referring to only the first five books of the Old Testament, then you have a very narrow and fundamental viewpoint. Scripture means sacred writings. I already supplied you with a number of SACRED writings of the JEWS which talk of celestial beings. Did you read post 11040 where I said the following:
Perhaps you have not heard of Mastema, the Adversarial Angel, the Lord of Darkness, a violent spirit appearing in the Book of Jubilees, written between 160-150 BC, and the Zadokite Fragments, aka Damascus Document, from 75-50 BC? Mastema, also known as Mastemoth or Samael, is another name for Belial and Satan. The name does not matter, the concept of an evil celestial remains the same. Mastema was also associated with ancient Egypt instructing Egyptian sorcerers in the art of dark magic. In other words, this idea dates back much further than the Christian Era.
There is a scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls titled, “The Angels of Mastemoth and the Rule of Belial”. It presents Mastema and his angles as rebellious spirits. These same rebellious angels appear in Enoch, from 300BC, which calls them the Watchers, the fallen angels.
In the “Testament of Amram,” composed in the first half of the second century BC, it is written:
“I raised my eyes and looked, one of them was terrifying in appearance, like a serpent, his cloak many-colored yet very dark . . . his appearance, visage like a viper . . . this Watcher, his three names were Belial, Prince of Darkness and King of Evil.”
From a Luciferian perspective Belial, or whatever name you choose to give him, is the bringer of independence through the force of will. At Qumran he is considered to be the ruler of the mundane world, the “Lord of this Earth,” an angel of lawlessness. If you recall reading my thread on Zoroastrianism on the old forum, I mentioned the evil spirit, Angro Mainyu as the “Ruler of the World”. The two are comparable, and this very, very ancient concept of two rulers, evil and good, gave rise to many gnostic beliefs as well. As you can see, the concept of an evil celestial, an enemy of God who tortures mankind is steeped in both mythology and religion. The two are pretty much inseparable without revelation.
Clearly what I wrote about above was considered to be sacred writings, or scripture, by the Jews. Many, if not all of the books were part of the synagogue libraries before the Christian Era.
126:3.8 While turning all these problems over in his mind, he found in the synagogue library at Nazareth, among the apocalyptic books which he had been studying, this manuscript called “The Book of Enoch” . . .
Because the celestial authors did not construct the rebellion narrative. A construct is an idea or theory containing various conceptual elements, typically considered to be subjective and not based on empirical evidence. How can a revelation be based upon constructs? Revelation is about truth.
I am not saying revelation is based on constructs. However, unless we are witnesses of revelation, logically we are left at the disposal of constructs to receive revelation. Or how else could the revelation be communicated to us? Neither one of us eye witnessed rebellion or any of the narratives put forth by the celestial authors. As well, TUB presents revelation through ‘language.’ Is not that kind of presentation a construct? Consider what this author tells us…
“We may resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.”
Is not ‘concept’ a construction? Even more, based on the above quote, one could deduce that concepts outside the scope of “pure revelation,” which we find all throughout TUB, are impure or imperfect/partial revelation.
BB
What is your definition of scripture? If you’re referring to only the first five books of the Old Testament, then you have a very narrow and fundamental viewpoint. Scripture means sacred writings. I already supplied you with a number of SACRED writings of the JEWS which talk of celestial beings. Did you read post 11040 where I said the following:Perhaps you have not heard of Mastema, the Adversarial Angel, the Lord of Darkness, a violent spirit appearing in the Book of Jubilees, written between 160-150 BC, and the Zadokite Fragments, aka Damascus Document, from 75-50 BC? Mastema, also known as Mastemoth or Samael, is another name for Belial and Satan. The name does not matter, the concept of an evil celestial remains the same. Mastema was also associated with ancient Egypt instructing Egyptian sorcerers in the art of dark magic. In other words, this idea dates back much further than the Christian Era. There is a scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls titled, “The Angels of Mastemoth and the Rule of Belial”. It presents Mastema and his angles as rebellious spirits. These same rebellious angels appear in Enoch, from 300BC, which calls them the Watchers, the fallen angels. In the “Testament of Amram,” composed in the first half of the second century BC, it is written:
“I raised my eyes and looked, one of them was terrifying in appearance, like a serpent, his cloak many-colored yet very dark . . . his appearance, visage like a viper . . . this Watcher, his three names were Belial, Prince of Darkness and King of Evil.”
Bonita, you are not getting my point. Hebrews believed in divine messengers who were ‘superhuman’ like in nature. They had no concept of non-corporeal or celestial beings. That is what I am arguing. What you produced are English translations which tell me nothing save that the translations reflect, to a degree, Christian dogma.
From a Luciferian perspective Belial, or whatever name you choose to give him, is the bringer of independence through the force of will. At Qumran he is considered to be the ruler of the mundane world, the “Lord of this Earth,” an angel of lawlessness. If you recall reading my thread on Zoroastrianism on the old forum, I mentioned the evil spirit, Angro Mainyu as the “Ruler of the World”. The two are comparable, and this very, very ancient concept of two rulers, evil and good, gave rise to many gnostic beliefs as well. As you can see, the concept of an evil celestial, an enemy of God who tortures mankind is steeped in both mythology and religion. The two are pretty much inseparable without revelation.
This tells me nothing and does not address the original issue of this thread, that is, TUB’s Lucifer narrative and a possible connection to Church history.
Clearly what I wrote about above was considered to be sacred writings, or scripture, by the Jews. Many, if not all of the books were part of the synagogue libraries before the Christian Era.
Bonita, when I say to supply scripture, I am referring to scripture in original tongue, so that I can examine it and see if any conveys this idea that Hebrew ‘angels’ were celestial/non-corporeal beings. You are supplying English translations. That does not help.
126:3.8 While turning all these problems over in his mind, he found in the synagogue library at Nazareth, among the apocalyptic books which he had been studying, this manuscript called “The Book of Enoch” . . .
The Enoch scripture does not speak of celestial or non-corporeal beings. I have copies of the Ethiopic and Slavonic translation, and neither one contains scripture portraying “angels” as non-corporeal in nature.
BB
However, unless we are witnesses of revelation, logically we are left at the disposal of constructs to receive revelation. Or how else could the revelation be communicated to us?
No, no, no . . . . revelation is a joint creation of material mind and the Adjuster. Revelation is true knowledge and does not require intermediaries; it only requires the individual mind in a relationship with the Adjuster. The thoughts the individual mind brings to the Adjuster get . . . . well . . . . adjustered, enlightened, revealaed. Revelation is the recognition and experience of truth which can only occur at the soul level of consciousness. The soul level of consciousness does not rely on constructs. It relies on an intimate relationship with Deity. Deity is not a construct; Deity is a personality experience. Revelation is not communicated to us, it is REVEALED to us as a personal religious experience. Revelation is supramaterial; it must occur in the soul. Revelation is not the written word but the personal experience WITH truth on a supramaterial level. And revelation, like truth, is part of personality realization, which means making the personality more REAL, more in tune with the cosmos, more sustainable or eternal. The cosmic technique of self-realization and reality recognition are all part of the same phenomenon, neither of which need constructs, a priori assumptions or deductions.
Bonita, when I say to supply scripture, I am referring to scripture in original tongue, so that I can examine it and see if any conveys this idea that Hebrew ‘angels’ were celestial/non-corporeal beings. You are supplying English translations. That does not help.
Well, then I suggest you check out the Dead Sea Scrolls digital library.
http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/languages-and-scripts?locale=en_US
However, unless we are witnesses of revelation, logically we are left at the disposal of constructs to receive revelation. Or how else could the revelation be communicated to us?
No, no, no . . . . revelation is a joint creation of material mind and the Adjuster. Revelation is true knowledge and does not require intermediaries; it only requires the individual mind in a relationship with the Adjuster. The thoughts the individual mind brings to the Adjuster get . . . . well . . . . adjustered, enlightened, revealaed. Revelation is the recognition and experience of truth which can only occur at the soul level of consciousness. The soul level of consciousness does not rely on constructs. It relies on an intimate relationship with Deity.
Bonita?
I am referring to epochal revelation. It is communicated to us via a book. There is no other avenue besides TUB. I mean, what is the purpose of TUB then?
Deity is not a construct;
Bonita, are you twisting my words? It seems like you are creating a strawman on me. I never said deity is a construct. Bonita?
Revelation is not communicated to us, it is REVEALED to us as a personal religious experience.
Seriously, Bonita? To be frank, I am all for honest inquiry and healthy debate, but being argumentative just for the sake of it I think is a waste. Your statement is semantics and serves no purpose. Bonita, communicate or reveal… same thing.
1 “Adjuster attempts to COMMUNICATE with you, the message is lost in the material currents of the energy streams of human mind; only occasionally do you catch an echo, a faint and distant echo, of the divine voice.”
Revelation is supramaterial; it must occur in the soul. Revelation is not the written word but the personal experience WITH truth on a supramaterial level.
My point exactly! What is in TUB is a construct to communicate or REVEAL (for your liking) certain types of revelation in the universe.
BB
Well, then I suggest you check out the Dead Sea Scrolls digital library. http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/languages-and-scripts?locale=en_US
LMAO! Bonita, I am very well acquainted with Hebrew scripture. Clicking on that link is not a task for me to indulge in as I have done the necessary study and research for 20 plus years. I am firm on my position regarding angels and Hebrew scripture. The onus is on you to present a scripture seeing as you are the one challenging what I had put forth.
BB
Bonita, you are not getting my point. Hebrews believed in divine messengers who were ‘superhuman’ like in nature. They had no concept of non-corporeal or celestial beings. That is what I am arguing. What you produced are English translations which tell me nothing save that the translations reflect, to a degree, Christian dogma.
Me here: My question is…so what? What difference does it make if our primitive ancestors (and those last century and all in between) had a lack of information or lack of revelation to clearly and precisely describe celestials, God’s nature, power, purpose, and process, or planetary history? Jesus spoke much to the apostles about the evolutionary concepts in Judaism and all other evolutionary religions and the transformation over time of those by personal/auto revelation – especially so around 6 centuries before the 4th epochal – the final bestowal of Michael. What is the point here? You asked “Did the Midwayers narrate Church (Christian) history as ‘War in Heaven'”? What has the beliefs of ancient Hebrews to do with the question posed? The purpose of the revelation given in written form is obvious, and this conversation reflects its very purpose well….it is a plainly written historical record of facts which explains why things are as they are and the who, what, when, where, and how of that history…..to eliminate error and reduce confusion by clarifying and correcting mortal records that so sorely need it.
It seems that the question is asking if the story of rebellion (and then default) are allegorical presentations about a subject that is so much less significant or relevant to the subject matter presented in the UB (a moment in time of a singular evolutionary religious institution). The evidence provided in support of a positive answer to the question posed is lacking so far but all such to date appears to argue that the story is made up and is actually about something other than rebellion and its sources and its effects on our world. It seems such a more important story to me than that postulated as the “real” story. But if one is not to believe the claim of celestial authorship and epochal revelation and the words used in the book describing history with accuracy…..then it might mean anything at all to those readers. Revelation is not a provable by material means or mortal arguments for sure. It either is what it claims or it is not. But to suggest it is epochal revelation but with hidden meanings and tangential subjects with unrevealed allegorical implications just seems like such a stretch. What would be the purpose and point of such a tome?…..except error and confusion that is. This is a most interesting Paper on the subject:
The Urantia Book
Paper 92
The Later Evolution of Religion
Hebrews believed in divine messengers who were ‘superhuman’ like in nature. They had no concept of non-corporeal or celestial beings.
Superhuman means NON-human ABOVE the level of human existence. The Jews had trouble with the concept of separating their own souls from their bodies, but they were well acquainted with the Persian concept of non-corporeal entities or spirits that could not be seen, yet existed to take over minds and bodies. How would the Jews be able to accept the notion of possession by evil spirits and the ability to cast them out of the body if they did not have a concept of non-corporeality of spirits? They must have been quite willing to accept the idea that the evil spirit was non-corporeal if it could move in and out of bodies and still continue to exist.
Bonita, you are not getting my point. Hebrews believed in divine messengers who were ‘superhuman’ like in nature. They had no concept of non-corporeal or celestial beings. That is what I am arguing. What you produced are English translations which tell me nothing save that the translations reflect, to a degree, Christian dogma. Me here: My question is…so what? What difference does it make if our primitive ancestors (and those last century and all in between) had a lack of information or lack of revelation to clearly and precisely describe celestials, God’s nature, power, purpose, and process, or planetary history? Jesus spoke much to the apostles about the evolutionary concepts in Judaism and all other evolutionary religions and the transformation over time of those by personal/auto revelation – especially so around 6 centuries before the 4th epochal – the final bestowal of Michael. What is the point here? You asked “Did the Midwayers narrate Church (Christian) history as ‘War in Heaven’”? What has the beliefs of ancient Hebrews to do with the question posed? The purpose of the revelation given in written form is obvious, and this conversation reflects its very purpose well….it is a plainly written historical record of facts which explains why things are as they are and the who, what, when, where, and how of that history…..to eliminate error and reduce confusion by clarifying and correcting mortal records that so sorely need it. It seems that the question is asking if the story of rebellion (and then default) are allegorical presentations about a subject that is so much less significant or relevant to the subject matter presented in the UB (a moment in time of a singular evolutionary religious institution). The evidence provided in support of a positive answer to the question posed is lacking so far but all such to date appears to argue that the story is made up and is actually about something other than rebellion and its sources and its effects on our world. It seems such a more important story to me than that postulated as the “real” story. But if one is not to believe the claim of celestial authorship and epochal revelation and the words used in the book describing history with accuracy…..then it might mean anything at all to those readers. Revelation is not a provable by material means or mortal arguments for sure. It either is what it claims or it is not. But to suggest it is epochal revelation but with hidden meanings and tangential subjects with unrevealed allegorical implications just seems like such a stretch. What would be the purpose and point of such a tome?…..except error and confusion that is. This is a most interesting Paper on the subject: The Urantia Book Paper 92 The Later Evolution of Religion
Honestly I have no idea how the topic dove tailed into celestial vs. corporeal divine beings. I would have to reread the exchanges to figure that out. Anyhow, to revisit the original topic, does the Lucifer narrative have any connection to Church history. I provided the link. I hope people at least took a read of the history before formulating their arguments.
BB
The onus is on you to present a scripture seeing as you are the one challenging what I had put forth.
I did supply the original language for you with the link. I cannot reproduce those images on this forum, you’ll have to go to the site if you want to read them. Or, you can accept the scholarly interpretations I provided. Your choice. And I know you are proud of your 20 years of study, but I have more than a decade on you . . . sorry.
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