Who Knows "The Truth"? What is Truth? Where is Truth Found?

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  • #20500
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    George Park wrote: It is the association of the spirit reality of truth with the material reality of fact which establishes an authoritatively true meaning. The less this association is conditioned by time and space, the more the truth approaches an absolute status.

    Truth is one element of reality and it is relative.  The association of fact and truth is accomplished by philosophy. It’s the second level of the cosmic mind: duty and ideas, the level of the intellect.  The only authority is God’s, but short of Paradise, truth is entirely relative, so its authority is also relative.  But even when we attain Paradise levels of truth, it is not absolute.  We first have to evolve the Supreme, which would be supreme truth; then we go on to absonite levels and discover ultimate truth, all before finding absolute truth, if we ever do.

    George Park wrote: The only reason we know it is an absolute fact is because the spirit reality of absolute truth is associated with it. Rather, to the extent that we recognize the reality of truth we recognize that it is literally a factual material reality.
    I think the only reason we know that Paradise is the highest material fact is because of revelation.  None of us knew that before TUB. Recognition of the reality of truth is recognition of value.  Recall that the third cosmic mind recognition response is to discriminate between what is value and what is not value. Truth is value, ideals, spiritual reality.
    George Park wrote:This is not always the case, since the material mind can grasp the absolute truth of the absolute fact of the Isle of Paradise. God is the absolute of truth. Paradise is the absolute of fact.

    Actually, I think TUB is quite clear that the material mind cannot grasp absolutes at all. And we’re told over and over again that Paradise is beyond the understanding grasp of the human mind.

    14:0.1 The perfect and divine universe occupies the center of all creation; it is the eternal core around which the vast creations of time and space revolve. Paradise is the gigantic nuclear Isle of absolutestability which rests motionless at the very heart of the magnificent eternal universe. This central planetary family is called Havona and is far-distant from the local universe of Nebadon. It is of enormous dimensions and almost unbelievable mass and consists of one billion spheres of unimagined beauty and superb grandeur, but the true magnitude of this vast creation is really beyond the understanding grasp of the human mind.

    3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel — literally experience — the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.

     

    #20501
    Avatar
    George Park
    Participant

    Truth is one element of reality and it is relative.

    While the truth is relative, it is not absolutely so; that is, it is logically inconsistent to assert that truth is absolutely relative.

    “God is the first truth and the last fact; therefore does all truth take origin in him, while all facts exist relative to him. God is absolute truth.” (102:6.6)

    God is absolute truth and absolute fact, and all truth and fact exist relative to him. Part of the absolute factuality of God is the absolute material reality of the Isle of Paradise – the Father creates Paradise at the same instant he becomes father to the Eternal Son. Absolute truth and absolute fact are not opposed; they are coordinate in absolute meaning. This is the axiomatic foundation of experience which arises from the three cosmic insights. At least, this is how these matters appear to me.

    #20503
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    George Park wrote: While the truth is relative, it is not absolutely so; that is, it is logically inconsistent to assert that truth is absolutely relative.

    Out in here in the experiential worlds of time and space, truth is always relative.  Truth is only absolute on Paradise for existential beings.  We are experiential beings, and therefore, truth for us is always relative.  The reason it is always relative is because truth in the experiential worlds is dependent upon experience and not everyone’s experience is complete; we have only partial experience with truth. Living truth, truth out here in the seven superuniverses, is always relative because it is always adapting.  Truth needs to be adaptive because of the contrast between truth and evil that allows for choice, for experience.   Truth on Paradise doesn’t have to rely on experience or the contrast between truth and evil, and therefore, doesn’t need to adapt or be relative.   Here are all the quotes which explain it:

    2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.

    2:7.3 Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.

    79:8.8 Truth is relative and expanding; it lives always in the present, achieving new expression in each generation of men–even in each human life.

    132:2.3  Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival.

    159:4.8  Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity.

    #20543
    Rick Warren
    Rick Warren
    Participant

    Thanks for the thoughtful contributions everyone,.

    Absolute Truth is an unknowable mystery, but revealed truth declares the God of Truth is our most intimate friend who lives at our very core. And since God is Truth, and our truest identity is the indwelling fragment of God, then we are truth, in some measure. Is that not the best truth of all?! Amazing to know we have a trinity of living truth living in our minds.

    I don’t doubt we will gradually discover what truth is to the mysterious Universal Father, up to our capacity as Finaliters at least. And we all receive partial insight into the totality of Absolute Truth through our unique experiences traveling through space, from world to world, tracing a single line on the great cosmic mosaic, from Urantia to Paradise, one that no other has traced or will again. Father’s truth is uniquely expressed in us, through our Thought Adjuster–when we are living the spirit-led life of course. And we know when life is spirit-led because truth has the flavor of God.

    It requires great courage to face genuine truth, partial truth needs less courage. Falsehood involves little or no courage. The truth of how God can personally be present with every member of the universal family everywhere in the cosmos at the same time, and still be our One Universal Sovereign who (in perfection mind you) upholds, powers, and guides the Universe, is explained by saying simply, omnipresence and omnipotence are divine prerogatives. That puts a label on, but explains nothing. The Truth of God is the greatest mystery of all, but we always know Father exists, because we and the cosmos exist. A real and vibrant piece of Father lives inside us, seeking to reveal the truth, offer constant embrace, even seek our loving attention and eternal friendship.

    …God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand–to explain–God, one must explore the fact of the universe of universes…. (1125.1) 102:6.6.

       The greatest and most real of all truths is God. To grasp the total reality, meaning and value of truth up to our capacity, we must view things as God does, become God-like. To know Father’s truth in perfection we will become living truth, as only we can. We will want to know everything about God before actually meeting God on Paradise, in person. That’ll be a Moment of Truth, won’t it!

    We have to thank our heavenly Father for providing innumerable teachers and countless lives to attain the absolute level of understanding of truth, such as we can. Of course, after reaching the Source of Truth on Paradise, we will serve endlessly bringing divine truth to our less advanced siblings, those still seeking truth. As we are now.

    If God is the source, center and destiny of all truth, personality, value, meaning and purpose, then truth for us personally is how we relate to Father on the spiritual/personal level. If God is Truth and we are children of God, what is truth to us??

    Whatever the truth is to us, it is not a boring universe. Life is a challenge! The space/time cosmos was created as our school and our cruising ground, a vast arena where we learn, grow, advance in spirit and service, in wisdom and knowledge, and where we perfect the God-like act of revealing truth. The universe is made so we can eventually find and live truth, but it takes effort. No hurry, no worry, every worthy goal will be reached if we, each day relentlessly, joyously, and willingly, seek the advice and counsel of our on-board truth indicator, also known as the Spirit of Truth. God thinks of everything.

    …Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service…. (1917.3) 176:3.7

    ***

    #20561
    André
    André
    Participant

    Dear Family,

    Here’s some crusts set aside:

    #20242 We were born in abject ignorance, without the knowledge of even the concept of truth. Rick Warren

    In my perspective, Rick, I do not consider ignorance as ”abject” since it has been our lot to experience. Our Father is well aware of our ignorance’s state. I consider it as part of His Plan to ascensionate His children who incubate through time and space.

    But your sentences well define ours misfortunes challenging opportunities.

    #20244which must be why they advise us to avoid making personal plans. Rick Warren

    mumble/mumble/mumble …  Why such an advice Rick?

     

    #20245  Bonita, you have a sense of humour delectable and using a colorful English vocabulary.

    #20301   Hooray!  Thanks Bradly.  You’re the only person in the entire TUB community who agrees with me on this.  It means a lot to me.

    Dear Bonita, as part of TUB community I read, think and enjoy those in depth conversations.

    I’’ ll not qualified those conversations as ‘’intellectuals’’ because I abhor labelled human beings since intellect is part of processing knowledge through our mind.  114:6.19, 0:6.8

    Nope! I just step aside and take pleasure on all yours ‘’point of view’’. Grabbing bits who are digestible and mumbling intellectually with my mind as pensive, inspiring and reflective modes.

    Thanks all for those 2 first pages red on ”Truth”.

     

    #20563
    Rick Warren
    Rick Warren
    Participant

    Dear Family, Here’s some crusts set aside: #20242 We were born in abject ignorance, without the knowledge of even the concept of truth. Rick Warren In my perspective, Rick, I do not consider ignorance as ”abject” since it has been our lot to experience. Our Father is well aware of our ignorance’s state. I consider it as part of His Plan to ascensionate His children who incubate through time and space. But your sentences well define ours misfortunes challenging opportunities.

    Abject can mean low or base, but more often it means pitiful or woeful. You are right. Complete would be a better word than abject, thanks Andre.

    andre wrote: #20244which must be why they advise us to avoid making personal plans. Rick Warren mumble/mumble/mumble … Why such an advice Rick?

    It’s from an Archangel in Paper 48, Andre:

    …Even as mortals, so have these angels been father to many disappointments, and they will point out that sometimes your most disappointing disappointments have become your greatest blessings. Sometimes the planting of a seed necessitates its death, the death of your fondest hopes, before it can be reborn to bear the fruits of new life and new opportunity. And from them you will learn to suffer less through sorrow and disappointment, first, by making fewer personal plans concerning other personalities, and then, by accepting your lot when you have faithfully performed your duty…. (555.4) 48:6.36

    andre wrote:

    Thanks all for those 2 first pages red on ”Truth”. …

    Thank you for the comments/reply.

    .

    #20565
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    andre wrote: Bonita, you have a sense of humour delectable and using a colorful English vocabulary.

    Is that a complement?  If so, thanks.  But I’ve been told otherwise by the vocabulary police who think my words abrasive, acerbic, tactless, unfriendly and intolerant.  At least you understand sardonicism, so thanks again.  I wish you would post more often though.  I would find it delectable.

     

    #20566
    André
    André
    Participant

    Bonita,

    Feel at ease, enjoy the road. Must be aware, from Urantia, it’s rising and a bit bumpy.

    ;)

    p.s. complement or compliment, only you can discern or embrace both. lol.

    #20567
    Zuimon
    Zuimon
    Participant

    The young boy is standing behind his mother on the footpath, she is sitting at the outdoor table drinking her coffee.  He steps away behind her where she can’t see him, then trips and hurts his hand as he breaks his fall.  He starts to cry.  She turns, looks down at him and angrily says: Stop mucking about!

    There is no compassion, no understanding, no sympathy in her voice and actions because he has hurt himself.  He drags himself up, stops crying and slowly comes back to the table.

    If I said to her: You don’t love your child, she’d probably angrily tell me to mind my own business.

    The boy being under seven years old is laying down the foundations of his life-patterns.  He’s forming beliefs based around the truth he is living.  Each circuit is being laid down within him like concrete.  He will grow into adulthood not remembering this ‘little episode’.  He will not understand that his mother doesn’t love him, that she showed it loud and clear to all the world.  I was the world in that moment – I saw, I was the silent witness, and I understood, because I too am that little boy.

    In this one small experience the relationship between the boy and his mother is flawed.  It’s unloving, it’s imperfect, it’s wrong – evil.  The mother is treating her son evilly.  And the boy feels such truth, but his mind will override such feelings.  He will grow up having imperfect and untrue relationships because that’s all he knows, it’s what he grew up on, what he was ‘fed’ – what he’s become.  He too will believe he is loving just as his mother no doubt does, yet many of his actions will belie such belief.  And one day, when he wants to know why his relationships keep failing – why he doesn’t actually feel good in life, he will want to know the truth.  And his quest for truth will ultimately lead him back to his relationship with his mother, father and other influential people in his forming years.

    For me this is what we’re to find the truth of: our rebellious states of being.  We are to uncover the truth of our evilness: Why we are wrong, why we are not expressing our personalities truly, why we are imperfect when we’ve been created by Perfection.  And anything else that is not helping us uncover the truth of our wrongness is only adding to our untruth.

    And as we can’t find the truth of ourselves, nature and God through our minds, so we need to look to our feelings.  Our feelings are the true part of us, they don’t lie, however they can be influenced and even corrupted to some degree by our minds, minds that have been led astray.

    So to uncover the truth we are to see about ourselves, we need to look to our feelings: What truth are they wanting us to see about ourselves?  What do we feel in each moment?

    What do you think about the notion that our feelings are the closest part of our personality to the truth?

    Hello to everyone on the forum.  I’ve only recently started reading it and have been enjoying such in-depth understanding of TUB.  I’d like to add my little bit.

    Zuimon.

    #20573
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    Welcome to the forum Zuimon.  I’m sorry to have our first discussion begin with a disagreement, but I must. When discussing feelings and emotions, one must be specific as to whether they are material feelings and emotions originating in the human mind, or divinely inspired feelings and emotions originating in the soul.
    Zuimon wrote: For me this is what we’re to find the truth of: our rebellious states of being.  We are to uncover the truth of our evilness: Why we are wrong, why we are not expressing our personalities truly, why we are imperfect when we’ve been created by Perfection.  And anything else that is not helping us uncover the truth of our wrongness is only adding to our untruth.

    This seems like a rather negative approach to the problem.  Why would you want to uncover your evilness?  Evil is just another word for imperfection.  Of course we are all imperfect but our goal in finding truth is to find our potential perfection, the source of which is the Adjuster who works with the soul, and when we have found our potential, embrace it wholeheartedly.  We grow in grace as we learn to identify with our potentially eternal self within the soul.

    101:2.14 Your deepest nature — the divine Adjuster — creates within you a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a certain craving for divine perfection.

    Nowhere in TUB does it say we’re supposed to self-examine and find our evilness.  That’s the backward and negative approach to truth.  Jesus taught us to look forward and positive.  He taught us rather than to self-examine (a negative approach), we should allow our righteous character to grow like the mustard seed (a positive approach).

    140:8.27 The three apostles were shocked this afternoon when they realized that their Master’s religion made no provision for spiritual selfexamination. All religions before and after the times of Jesus, even Christianity, carefully provide for conscientious selfexamination. But not so with the religion of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus’ philosophy of life is without religious introspection. The carpenter’s son never taught character building; he taught character growth, declaring that the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. But Jesus said nothing which would proscribe self-analysis as a prevention of conceited egotism.

    148:4.6 By nature, before the rebirth of the spirit, mortal man is subject to inherent evil tendencies, but such natural imperfections of behavior are neither sin nor iniquity. Mortal man is just beginning his long ascent to the perfection of the Father in Paradise. To be imperfect or partial in natural endowment is not sinful.

    148:4.8 Men are, indeed, by nature evil, but not necessarily sinful.

    Zuimon wrote: And as we can’t find the truth of ourselves, nature and God through our minds, so we need to look to our feelings.  Our feelings are the true part of us, they don’t lie, however they can be influenced and even corrupted to some degree by our minds, minds that have been led astray.

    I can’t completely agree with that.  We actually do find truth through our minds.  The mind is the gateway to the soul where the truth lives.  It is our thoughts which guide us Godward, not our feelings.  Our human feelings maybe true or untrue, useful or useless.  Only the worshipful group of feelings have a potential of becoming true if they become elevated to soul level through the gateway of the spirits of worship and wisdom. Human feelings are part of the emotional life of the material mind.  Truth exists in the supermind, a supermaterial level of mind, where human material feelings do not exist.  Yes, souls do have divine feelings, supermaterial feelings, such as the feeling of the presence of God, but this is not derived from the human senses. It is a spiritual sense, more likely a morontia, or supermaterial sense.

    155:6.13 While the mind is not the seat of the spiritual nature, it is indeed the gateway thereto.

    101:1.3 The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind.

    180:5.3 Truth is a spiritual reality value experienced only by spirit-endowed beings who function upon supermaterial levels of universe consciousness, and who, after the realization of truth, permit its spirit of activation to live and reign within their souls.

    155:6.12 It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God.

    Zuimon wrote: So to uncover the truth we are to see about ourselves, we need to look to our feelings: What truth are they wanting us to see about ourselves?  What do we feel in each moment?
    Remember that material feelings lead to material actions.  If you want to find divine feelings, the presence of God, then do not practice self-evaluation, self-criticism.  What you need to do instead is pray and worship. Pray for spiritual insight into your soul where the presence of God exists.

    p1121:5 102:3.3 Material feelings, human emotions, lead directly to material actions, selfish acts. Religious insights, spiritual motivations, lead directly to religious actions, unselfish acts of social service and altruistic benevolence.

    #20575
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Greetings Zuimon and welcome!!

    Regarding our “rebellious” nature – I would suggest you consider what the UB says about our “dual” nature.  We are born with our natural animal nature which is, appropriately, self serving but we are, usually, endowed with the Father fragment at a young age which signals we have personally realized our other natural spirit nature.  We are to learn to identify more and more with our spirit nature by hearing and responding to the small still voice and the yearning which the TA brings to us.  A rebellious nature would be one that first recognizes the duality and clings to the material/self serving nature while knowingly rejecting/rebelling against the spirit nature.

    As Bonita points out, feelings are similarly divided by the dual nature.  How we “feel” and how we “respond” to situations, circumstances, and relationships should change over time, based on our personal reality alignment – love response and spirit response….seeking the will of Father at every intersection of choice or decision.  Such change reflects growth, maturity, and wisdom in our experience of making choices over time.

    Simple sincerity in our decisions will bring the changes to how we respond and why – our motives, intentions, and priorities in every choice – until it becomes almost reflexive and automatic by our spirit nature and experience in the spirit.

    The best way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally as a tadpole today!!  The fruits of the spirit attend those who seek and respond TO the spirit…..the spirit nature is nourished by the seeking of and response to the spirit within.

    I have found that my “feelings” are completely reoriented based on maturity and growth in the Spirit as my responses to everything and my perspective embraces universe reality – which is love of others and for God.

    :good:

    #20576
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    On our dual nature:

    34:6.9 (381.3) In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.

    34:6.13 (381.7) The consciousness of the spirit domination of a human life is presently attended by an increasing exhibition of the characteristics of the Spirit in the life reactions of such a spirit-led mortal, “for the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.” Such spirit-guided and divinely illuminated mortals, while they yet tread the lowly paths of toil and in human faithfulness perform the duties of their earthly assignments, have already begun to discern the lights of eternal life as they glimmer on the faraway shores of another world; already have they begun to comprehend the reality of that inspiring and comforting truth, “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And throughout every trial and in the presence of every hardship, spirit-born souls are sustained by that hope which transcends all fear because the love of God is shed abroad in all hearts by the presence of the divine Spirit.

    And the Tale of Two Wolves:

    ONE EVENING, AN ELDERLY
    CHEROKEE BRAVE TOLD HIS
    GRANDSON ABOUT A BATTLE THAT
    GOES ON INSIDE PEOPLE.

    HE SAID “MY SON, THE BATTLE IS
    BETWEEN TWO ‘WOLVES’ INSIDE US ALL.
    ONE IS EVIL. IT IS ANGER,
    ENVY, JEALOUSY, SORROW,
    REGRET, GREED, ARROGANCE,
    SELF-PITY, GUILT, RESENTMENT,
    INFERIORITY, LIES, FALSE PRIDE,
    SUPERIORITY, AND EGO.

    THE OTHER IS GOOD.
    IT IS JOY, PEACE LOVE, HOPE SERENITY,
    HUMILITY, KINDNESS, BENEVOLENCE,
    EMPATHY, GENEROSITY,
    TRUTH, COMPASSION AND FAITH.”

    THE GRANDSON THOUGH ABOUT
    IT FOR A MINUTE AND THEN ASKED
    HIS GRANDFATHER:

    “WHICH WOLF WINS?…”

    THE OLD CHEROKEE SIMPLY REPLIED,
    “THE ONE THAT YOU FEED”

     

    Me here:  Which nature do we most identify with?  Which nature leads us in our choices and responses at the intersections of life?  If it is the animal nature, then the mind has yet to take control of our choices.  The mind must first choose its nature and then our loyalty to that nature will begin to lead us into discernment and consideration related to our motives and intentions, which when led by the spirit and applied by our will leads into a growth experience that has value and results – the fruits of the Spirit described above which result from transferring the very seat of our identity from the one normal nature to the other normal nature in balance and harmony and expressed by our personal philosophy of living in our daily walk.  The animal succumbs to the mind arena of will and choice and motive and intention and then the Spirit begins to rule the entire being as we approach God by prayer and worship and communion.  It’s a process….with immediate and accruing benefits/results which leads to wisdom from such experience.

    34:7.2 (382.2) Evolutionary mortals inhabiting normal worlds of spiritual progress do not experience the acute conflicts between the spirit and the flesh which characterize the present-day Urantia races. But even on the most ideal planets, pre-Adamic man must put forth positive efforts to ascend from the purely animalistic plane of existence up through successive levels of increasingly intellectual meanings and higher spiritual values.

    34:7.3 (382.3) The mortals of a normal world do not experience constant warfare between their physical and spiritual natures. They are confronted with the necessity of climbing up from the animal levels of existence to the higher planes of spiritual living, but this ascent is more like undergoing an educational training when compared with the intense conflicts of Urantia mortals in this realm of the divergent material and spiritual natures.

    #20577
    André
    André
    Participant
     Welcome Zuimon,

    As I read, I sat and listen. How well you evoke feelings, emotions and demonstrated ill advised behaviours.

    We were born in complete ignorance.” post #20242 Rick

    Perpetuating this ill-conditioned Savoir-faire. As Bonita and Bradley emphasis, the revelators want us to know better. They give us a guide to effectively fill in our ignorance or lost knowledge. Spiritual ministry from Deities to brotherhood express Fatherly love to each of His children and creation.

    Jesus gives us examples to do God’s will. God’s will is God behaviour.

    What you think about what’s been said?

    Warm regards,

    p.s.  beautiful writing skills and very interesting subject.

    #20583
    Zuimon
    Zuimon
    Participant

    Thank you all for your replies, and it’s nice to feel immediately accepted and… let’s get on with it.

    Bonita, you said that we do find truth through our minds, and I’ve been dying to ask someone who is obviously adamant about this for an example.  So can you please share a personal example of how this has happened for you.  Can anyone – Bradly, andre?

    For me this is what it all comes down to: Can you find truth through your mind; or do we find it through our feelings?  I know TUB says we can through the mind as you’ve all pointed out, but I disagree with that to some extent.  Of course the mind is involved, it can’t simply be left out, but for me it’s the feelings that are the key to our truth growth.

    Bradly, you said: “The best way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally as a tadpole today!!”, and for me, as I have feelings, why not live loyally to them today, in each feeling-moment, whilst wanting to know why I feel them – the truth of them, with my feelings leading me through life as I slowly grow into a frog?

    Can you go directly to the Source of Mind – the Infinite Spirit and gain truth from Her?  Because this is essentially as I understand what you are all saying and what the book even seems to say itself.

    (And by the way, I see – relate to – the Infinite Spirit as a ‘Her’, I don’t understand why the book refers to all of the mind lineage being feminine when the wellspring of all Mind is masculine??? – do you have any thoughts on this?  Why is She not the Infinite Daughter?  And why confuse things by calling Her the Spirit when the Spirit gravity circuits (truth circuits) all come from the Eternal Son?)

    For me this doesn’t compute – perhaps I’m missing something, but I see the Eternal Son as the well-spring of all feelings, and so it’s to Him that I am to look for the Truth.  I am to use my mind in support of this: using my mind to help me focus on my feelings; using my mind to help me express ALL my feelings, good and bad, higher and lower; using my mind to help me long for the truth of my feelings, but NOT to use my mind to try and uncover truth directly because from my experiences it doesn’t do that.  When I’ve tried to do that I’ve become aware that I start making things up, but pure and direct uninterfered with truth revelation for me always comes through my feelings, once I’ve fully acknowledged them, expressed them, and wanted to know what they are wanting me to see about myself.

    And for me this is my understanding of the relationship between the Truth/Feelings and Mind/Thoughts: the Eternal Son and Infinite Spirit.

    So Feelings are closer to the Father, the deepest Source of those feelings – Soul.  So our feelings are closer to our soul than our mind and its thoughts.  The Mind is that bit further away, however we need the mind to help us focus on our feelings when we’ve been made to deny so many of them, and then to help us put into context and relevant understanding what truth comes to light through our feelings.

    This morning I was working on expressing my feelings whilst longing for the truth of them.  They were bad feelings I was expressing, feelings that resulted from a dream I was discussing with my wife about how unloved I felt by my parents, and suddenly up it came within me, the beautiful upwelling of truth, and I just knew that I had been created perfect, that my soul is true and perfect, and the ONLY reason I am imperfect and untrue is because of the result of not being truly and fully loved.  And that had I been parented by truly and fully loving parents then I’d have naturally grown into the true and perfect personality expression of my soul that I am.  I KNEW it, I could ‘see’ it, this being now part of ‘My Truth’.  And I don’t care what it says in any book, for me this is real, it’s my spiritual growth, it’s what growing in truth is all about – helping me to understand the truth of myself.  And then my mind came in putting this new insight – revelation – into perspective, integrating it with all that I already understand about myself.  But best of all I could feel that lovely shift within myself, that feeling of knowing I am no longer that same person I was a few moments ago, I am now different, I’ve moved on.  And it was ALL because I was fully acknowledging my feelings.  Looking to my mind for truth never gave me the same gratifying feeling, sure I enjoyed the links-ups and intellectual expansion that comes when you suddenly understand something with your mind, but nothing like this feeling-moment when the truth suddenly comes out of the blue, and sensing it coming from deep within me, not just in my mind, it coming up from soul.

    I like Rick’s initial questions and have often wondered about such things – does anyone feel these presences specifically at work within them?  Rick – what about you having posted such questions?

    “Have you wondered if you can sometimes discern the Spirit of Truth at work, distinct from the Indweller, and the Holy Spirit? No doubt they all work as one and are difficult to distinguish, but is there some subtle difference in feeling or outworking that you have noted?”

    #20584
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Zuimon, I hope I didn’t scare you off.  You brought up a really important topic, especially when it comes to truth, that needs to be discussed.  Bradly mentioned our dual nature, but I would like to also stress a very important feature of the adjutant mind which gets little attention, the spirits of worship and wisdom.

    0:5.8  Mind. The thinking, perceiving, and feeling mechanism of the human organism. The total conscious and unconscious experience. The intelligence associated with the emotional life reaching upward through worship and wisdom to the spirit level.

    You might recall when the spirit of worship made contact with Andon and Fonta they began to exhibit a group of worshipful emotions: awe, reverence, humility and gratitude.  Other highly evolved feelings were rudimentary including: pity, shame, reproach, love, hate, revenge and jealousy.

    62:5.4 But the most remarkable advance in emotional development was the sudden appearance of a new group of really human feelings, the worshipful group, embracing awe, reverence, humility, and even a primitive form of gratitude.

    62:5.5  Not only were such human feelings manifested in these primitive humans, but many more highly evolved sentiments were also present in rudimentary form. They were mildly cognizant of pity, shame, and reproach and were acutely conscious of love, hate, and revenge, being also susceptible to marked feelings of jealousy.

    It’s odd to think that shame, hate, revenge and jealousy are highly evolved feelings, but apparently they are, and they are for a reason.  My guess is that they appear as soon as the mind is able to distinguish between truth and evil, right and wrong.  It’s a morality issue which indicates the possibility of the function of the spirit of wisdom and choice.  Free will is a feature of personality, and the human personality needs contrasts in order to choose.

    Shame is evidence of the function of conscience, feelings of guilt, which is also evidence of moral judgment.  Hate is an animal reaction that contrasts love.  Revenge and jealousy may occur because of the desire to survive on the physical level, which must be expanded to the desire for survival on the spiritual level.  Love being a happier emotion should eventually win over hate in an evolving animal mind.  So, the presence of these emotions in the twins reveals the onset of the duality of human nature that Bradly mentioned.  Duality of human nature is only possible if there exists concurrently, a lower mind and a higher mind, a choice.  The twins were on the verge of making a choice to develop the higher mind, or the soul.

    These two adjutants, worship and wisdom, are critical to human spiritual growth.  They function in such a way as to illuminate the contrasts between the lower and higher minds, or natures if you prefer.  The moment a human recognizes the contrast and chooses the higher emotion or feeling, is the moment the soul is born and begins to grow.  Then, the rest of life is spent keeping that gateway open by looking for ways to elevate, not only emotions and feelings, but thoughts, ideas and attitudes which foster soul growth. These two spirits also introduce the human mind to the Holy Spirit, “ministry of the Spirit” referenced in this quote:

    34:5.3 Mortal man first experiences the ministry of the Spirit in conjunction with mind when the purely animal mind of evolutionary creatures develops reception capacity for the adjutants of worship and of wisdom. This ministry of the sixth and seventh adjutants indicates mind evolution crossing the threshold of spiritual ministry. And immediately are such minds of worship- and wisdom-function included in the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister.

    The spirit of worship is the adjutant which initiates the duality of human nature. It reveals the contrast between the animal and super-animal level.

    36:5.11 6. The spirit of worship — the religious impulse, the first differential urge separating mind creatures into the two basic classes of mortal existence. The spirit of worship forever distinguishes the animal of its association from the soulless creatures of mind endowment. Worship is the badge of spiritual-ascension candidacy.

    Once the spirit of worship functions, providing those emotions of awe, reverence, humility and gratitude, and once the eyes are open to the contrasts between right and wrong, truth and evil, then the door is open for choosing and for the spirit of wisdom to function.

    36:5.12 7. The spirit of wisdom — the inherent tendency of all moral creatures towards orderly and progressive evolutionary advancement. This is the highest of the adjutants, the spirit co-ordinator and articulator of the work of all the others. This spirit is the secret of that inborn urge of mind creatures which initiates and maintains the practical and effective program of the ascending scale of existence; that gift of living things which accounts for their inexplicable ability to survive and, in survival, to utilize the co-ordination of all their past experience and present opportunities for the acquisition of all of everything that all of the other six mental ministers can mobilize in the mind of the organism concerned. Wisdom is the acme of intellectual performance. Wisdom is the goal of a purely mental and moral existence.

    So in regards to feelings, I go back to my original thought on the subject which was essentially the need to distinguish between feelings which elevate and illuminate and those that don’t.  I’d also like to say that we all have negative feelings and they exist in our minds for a purpose, as a clear contrast to positive feelings and emotions, the kind that move us toward perfection, the more Godlike ones.  And also, thoughts are just as important as feelings and emotions.  Thoughts are what eventually control them, move them in a Godward direction, which is why they call God within the Thought Adjuster.

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