Reincarnation

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  • #47750
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Greetings Michael!!

     

    I’ve been reading along to yours and Nigel’s conversation about science with great interest (and equal ignorance! …haha).

    Read Robert’s Seth Speaks and The Nature of Personal Reality in 1973-74 and had several personal “readings” and received my spirit names (2 readings, 2 different names – lucky and special me!) to eventually verify my agreement with Houdini on the matter of mediumship.   Reincarnation, as I understood the Hindu and Buddhist versions didn’t ring true for me either, even though I was (and remain) a student of Zen and the Tao.

    I have likewise searched for reality-perspective from a broad spectrum of sources.  The UB helped me gain focus and dimensional orientation while integrating so many diverse elements of fact/truth and effectively exposing others as historical, evolutionary, and mythological distortions of a more primitive and superstitious origin and nature.

    My biggest problem with Reincarnation was always its intended progress being prevented by the lack of progressive, experiential wisdom gained only by continuity of awareness and the collective aggregation and integration of BEING and BECOMING.

     

    And the charlatans and novices practicing and promoting such mediumship appear so obviously incompetent and lack true depth of presence and reality perspective.   The community itself lacks substance and relevancy in my experienced opinion.  Teachers teach us how to travel and see while mediums offer guided tours to nowhere, and back again to where you were/are.  What has been learned or gained of value for the real journey of life and eternal adventure?

    :-)

     

    Best wishes all…u2 rich!

    #47751
    Avatar
    Nigel Nunn
    Participant

    Hi Michael,

    Your truly excellent reply to rich added a whole lot of value to his brief comment.

    Seems to be true, that when the student (rich) is ready, the teacher (Michael) arrives  :good:

    Nigel

    #47753
    Avatar
    urantia4me
    Participant

    Wow Bradly & Nigel – though it took me a while to catch up, I feel like have at reached your neighborhoods of awareness, but without having all the specific points of knowledge. I love learning & understanding concepts of various topics, though sometimes I struggle a bit with understanding specific equations & philosophical connections. But that’s ok for now. Nigel, I really enjoyed viewing your part 4C video – you well explained dark islands of space & answered some of my other astronomy questions along the way will view your other 4 videos soon and will share what I read about vortices prior to viewing your video which you may find interesting, but must get ready for work now. Bradly, with your background, no wonder you have been well able to compare & contrast other philosophies with the UB!

    #47755
    Avatar
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    i said one thing.

    71:2.13 (802.7)  Freedom of speech. Representative government is unthinkable without freedom of all forms of expression for human aspirations and opinions.

    Hahaha!!! Rich, so many things in the UB you disagree with and for so long too!! Michael…you may wish to not engage this one. Trouble with a capital T. Mods here allow his foolishness and piracy. Too bad. Other sites have terminated his posting and hijacking privileges for good cause. Habitually disruptive and unresponsive. :-(

    #47756
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    i said one thing.

    71:2.13 (802.7) Freedom of speech. Representative government is unthinkable without freedom of all forms of expression for human aspirations and opinions.

    Hahaha!!! Rich, so many things in the UB you disagree with and for so long too!! Michael…you may wish to not engage this one. Trouble with a capital T. Mods here allow his foolishness and piracy. Too bad. Other sites have terminated his posting and hijacking privileges for good cause. Habitually disruptive and unresponsive. :-(

    Actually…you said:

    “when a world is settled in light and life then there’s no more need for reincarnation, until then reincarnation is helpful for most mortals.”

    And then this:

    “You will reincarnate whether or not you believe that you will. It is much easier if your theories fit reality; but if they do not, you will not change the nature of reincarnation one iota.” (From the book: THE SETH MATERIAL) i believe in seth, my only difference with tub.”

    Just to be clear, I did not report this post to be “inappropriate”…although I think it is really.

    Personally I do appreciate Rich pointing out the fact that he disagrees with the Urantia Papers.   Certainly this issye is not his only disagreement or contradiction of the UB however, despite that claim above.  Rich has a long record of posts and opinions at other sites as well.

    Anyway…the fictional Seth of Robert’s fame as author and self proclaimed psychic is no authority here about anything at all.

    ;-)

    #47765
    Avatar
    urantia4me
    Participant

    Hello Nigel – I want to thank you for your efforts to compare and contrast modern ideas on astronomy with the relevant parts of the Urantia Book. Besides viewing 3 of the 4-part videos (with the Milky Way video still to come), I read some of the related posts in some of the others forums you started, along with some of the comments from others. I have a better understanding of the foundational structures at the macro & micro levels.

    So now may I ask, should we think of Segregata as Dark Matter, and Dark Energy as a force coming from Nether Paradise? Also, should we think of the Ultimaton as a kind of bridge between observable matter/gravity & (currently) non-observable counterparts, especially since one of its properties is anti-gravity? I ask that because vortices are thought by some to serve as portals linking lesser to greater realities.

    Ok, bye for now.

    #47766
    Avatar
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    look this is MY theory, there’s no proof for reincarnation. reincarnation can be helpful on a world not settled in light and life. the ub is about perfection in a sense. there’s no way i can give you an adequate explanation, this is simply a belief held by any given individual. most every new age book i read besides the ub believes in reincarnation. seth explains it extensively. on a world of light and life a person would progress so well that reincarnation wouldn’t be helpful, they would simply go to whichever mansion world they’re meant to go to. i could type about this or talk about this extensively but there’s no point to it. you can’t prove or disprove whatever someone believes about reincarnation.

    Thank you for the links, Nigel; I will look at them more carefully in the next few days, for I was just checking this forum before going to sleep. Hi Bradly! I was wondering what happened to you over the past week or so, since you normally reply so promptly. I appreciate you keeping me aware of things. Just so you and Rich know, prior to the UB, I have read a various sources who have done their best to explain reincarnation. While I stand by my recent comments on that subject, I will also add this – the many higher-level beings which the UB has revealed seem to have quite a tolerance & patience for our misunderstandings, especially if we are honestly trying to live appropriately & educate ourselves about life now & the afterlife. So much so that they don’t bother to overtly correct those who continue to promote “modern” ideas about reincarnation, starting with Madam Blavatski’s “Theosophy” & Edgar Cayce (whose readings I’m very familiar with) in the early 1900s, and later the Seth material (of which I was already aware) in the 1960s, and others since then like Cannon, Newton, Weiss, Goldberg, etc. The main point of listing all those individuals is to let Rich and others know that I know very well what has been taught regarding reincarnation. But what Rich & others may not yet be considering is how truths comes to our individual awareness in stages based on what we can accept at any given time. Thus for some people, like Cayce, Newton, & others, their staring point in adult life may be atheism, and maybe later on, they may turn to Buddhism, and still later on, they may accept the teachings of mainstream Christianity, and then later in life, they may consider the version of reality as presented in the Seth readings, and then finally they may read & accept the revelation of the UB. Notice how each set of teachings keeps getting closer & closer to ultimate truth, which is a natural human process, provided we are honestly seeking greater truths. I think Nigel once quoted the UB, stating that our ideas are like scaffolding that eventually falls away, leaving us only the essential truths. I am curious to know what Rich believed before he found the Seth teachings. Also, did Rich find it difficult to let go his prior beliefs? Even before I found the UB, I began to question the validity of reincarnation, such as how fair is it to hold people accountable for supposed mistakes made in lifetimes that they don’t even remember?! And when I began asking serious questions of those claiming to be psychic or past-life regression therapists, I soon realized there’s no way to truly, objectively validate what they tell you about your supposed past lives. It’s all based only on what you FEEL to be true. And on a practical level, while karmic debt is being resolved in one area of our lives, we create more karmic debt in other areas of our lives, so we never really get out of the rat race when you look closely at how the reincarnation process supposedly works. One step forward but 2 or more steps backward, for each lifetime?! That doesn’t add up, even if you have 10,000 lifetimes! And now we can see why the apostle Paul falsely stated that the death of Jesus on the cross became the perfect sacrifice to end all imperfect sacrifices. Same basic idea of karmic debt needing to be paid but in a different cultural/religious setting. But this is where the UB makes more sense – you can KNOW what to expect in great detail in the afterlife; eternal survival is logically explained, with realistic, standardized goals to meet in order to graduate to higher levels of existence. Goodbye for now.

    #47767
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant
    look this is MY theory, there’s no proof for reincarnation. reincarnation can be helpful on a world not settled in light and life. the ub is about perfection in a sense. there’s no way i can give you an adequate explanation, this is simply a belief held by any given individual. most every new age book i read besides the ub believes in reincarnation. seth explains it extensively. on a world of light and life a person would progress so well that reincarnation wouldn’t be helpful, they would simply go to whichever mansion world they’re meant to go to. i could type about this or talk about this extensively but there’s no point to it. you can’t prove or disprove whatever someone believes about reincarnation.
    Agreed.   No one can prove anything here and no one is trying to.  But we can, I think, agree on what the UB says about reincarnation and it is the Papers we share and study here.  Seth is irrelevant here.
    The UB is clear.  There is no reincarnation in the universe reality perspective given in the UB.   None.  Why someone would believe in the teachings about planetary destiny and Light and Life in the UB but dismiss the teachings on the primitive and superstitious myth of reincarnation is quite interesting.
    And puzzling. ;-)
    #47768
    Alain
    Alain
    Participant

    Hi friends,

    Can these quotes be helpful?

    <small>46:7.4 (528.2)</small> Although spornagia neither possess nor evolve survival souls, though they do not have personality, nevertheless, they do evolve an individuality which can experience reincarnation. When, with the passing of time, the physical bodies of these unique creatures deteriorate from usage and age, their creators, in collaboration with the Life Carriers, fabricate new bodies in which the old spornagia re-establish their residences.

    <small>46:7.5 (528.3)</small> Spornagia are the only creatures in all the universe of Nebadon who experience this or any other sort of reincarnation. They are only reactive to the first five of the adjutant mind-spirits; they are not responsive to the spirits of worship and wisdom. But the five-adjutant mind equivalates to a totality or sixth reality level, and it is this factor which persists as an experiential identity.

    #47769
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    Thanks for the single exception.   Accuracy, even precision, is a good thing.

     

    Spornagia are not ascendant beings but certainly abide in the universe.

     

    ;-)

    #47771
    Mara
    Mara
    Participant

    . . . agree on what the UB says about reincarnation and it is the Papers we share and study here

    Yep.  Jesus makes it plain to us.  Read what he says to us about what happens at death, in other words what happens at the end of your natural life.

    From PAPER 176:   https://urantia-association.org/the-urantia-book/part-4/paper-176/

        “But what is the significance of this teaching having to do with the coming of the Sons of God? Do you not perceive that, when each of you is called to lay down his life struggle and pass through the portal of death, you stand in the immediate presence of judgment, and that you are face to face with the facts of a new dispensation of service in the eternal plan of the infinite Father? What the whole world must face as a literal fact at the end of an age, you, as individuals, must each most certainly face as a personal experience when you reach the end of your natural life and thereby pass on to be confronted with the conditions and demands inherent in the next revelation of the eternal progression of the Father’s kingdom.”

     

    #47774
    Avatar
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    reincarnation is my only difference with tub.  “James, James, when did I teach you that you should all see alike? I have come into the world to proclaim spiritual liberty to the end that mortals may be empowered to live individual lives of originality and freedom before God. I do not desire that social harmony and fraternal peace shall be purchased by the sacrifice of free personality and spiritual originality. What I require of you, my apostles, is spirit unity—and that you can experience in the joy of your united dedication to the wholehearted doing of the will of my Father in heaven. You do not have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order spiritually to be alike. Spiritual unity is derived from the consciousness that each of you is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of the heavenly Father. Your apostolic harmony must grow out of the fact that the spirit hope of each of you is identical in origin, nature, and destiny.”
    when a world is settled in light and life then there’s no more need for reincarnation, until then reincarnation is helpful for most mortals.

    52:7.2 (598.5) The Teacher Sons come in groups to the spiritualizing worlds. A planetary Teacher Son is assisted and supported by seventy primary Sons, twelve secondary Sons, and three of the highest and most experienced of the supreme order of Daynals. This corps will remain for some time on the world, long enough to effect the transition from the evolutionary ages to the era of light and life—not less than one thousand years of planetary time and often considerably longer. This mission is a Trinity contribution to the antecedent efforts of all the divine personalities who have ministered to an inhabited world.

    I am confused. TUB states in several places that the idea of reincarnation is absurd. How would one explain, then, the work of those such as Brian Weiss, Dolores Cannon, and Michael Newton? (Not to mention the religions of Buddhism and Hinduism). I have an idea on the issue, but I would first like to see some discussion on it to get some other ideas I may not have considered. Then I would like to share my thoughts on the subject.

    This is a direct contradiction of the Papers. That’s okay. Disagree all you want but let’s be clear; you often contradict and disagree with the UB here and other places too. Kind of consistent actually in that regard.

    #47775
    Bradly
    Bradly
    Participant

    rich…there is only one reality.  The UB claims to provide an Epochal Revelation of that reality perspective.   The very purpose of Epochal Revelation is to reduce error and eliminate confusion about universe reality.

    The quote you offer above is an important teaching about “spiritual unity” and the discernment of truth – not fact.  The UB claims to present both fact and truth.  Truth and meaning are individually perceived according to our spiritual progress and experiential wisdom so are always distorted and limited by the subjective perspective.

    Universe reality is an objective fact and shared by all who have common knowledge of reality.

    You don’t agree with that celestial perspective and presentation of universe reality.   That’s fine.  But it is THAT reality perspective as presented in the UB that we share and study here.  And certainly not that of Ms. Robert’s conjuring and publishing.

     

    ;-)

    #47777
    Avatar
    urantia4me
    Participant

    Thank you Mara for quoting from Paper 176 – I have not read that part of the UB yet as I am reading the Papers in sequential order. But that was very relevant.

    Thank you Alain for the UB quote about Spornagia. The UB obviously wanted us humans to clearly see the difference between reincarnation and repersonalization. By the way, had you ever heard of the creature known as “the immortal jellyfish”? I wonder if Spornagia is a comparable type of creature, for researchers discovered that when that particular kind of jellyfish reaches the end of its life, it reverts back to its beginning stage of life. As long as it is not killed, that renewal process continues indefinitely!

    For Rich and Bradly, since perfection is the goal as stated by the Universal Father, it may be helpful to compare repersonalization with learning to play a musical instrument. In the process of learning to play perfectly without making mistakes, we certainly do NOT acquire any kind of karmic debt in the process, which we can all agree upon. To attribute karma to the process of learning would be foolish in that context. Likewise, the UB considers our limited, skewed human beliefs about reincarnation to also be foolish, for basically the same reason – karma (as a moral concept associated with the idea of justice) is not a factor in our achieving perfection.

    Right and wrong is a concept we learn in childhood, but reviewing our actions in the context of non-judgemental cause and effect is something we first learn when we are more mature (like in science class) seems to be closer to the way the UB wants us to perceive our lives. Choices that work toward our perfection & choices that move us away from perfection does not require moral judgments, as is seen in my example of learning to perfectly play a musical instrument. Notice that we say “you’re not even trying” to those who have the attitude of “I don’t care to achieve personal perfection”. That is the real problem with what we call “evil” human thoughts & behavior.

    Likewise as children, we first associate “pleasure & pain” with “right & wrong”, but according to the Urantia Book, the struggles of life (which we humans normally associate with pain) are actually what moves us closer to perfection, NOT the laziness we picture for ourselves living on our own private island or living in a big, beautiful mansion with servants (as is a typical, immature human concept of paradise/utopia). So our typical ideas associated with reincarnation are actually revealing our immature human conceptions of perfection/heaven, NOT a system created by (or an endgame desired by) our Perfect Universal Father.

    Bye for now.

    #47778
    Avatar
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    there’s nothing sordid about jane roberts channeling seth.

    77:8.13 (865.6) Their chief work today is that of unperceived personal-liaison associates of those men and women who constitute the planetary reserve corps of destiny. It was the work of this secondary group, ably seconded by certain of the primary corps, that brought about the co-ordination of personalities and circumstances on Urantia which finally induced the planetary celestial supervisors to initiate those petitions that resulted in the granting of the mandates making possible the series of revelations of which this presentation is a part. But it should be made clear that the midway creatures are not involved in the sordid performances taking place under the general designation of “spiritualism.” The midwayers at present on Urantia, all of whom are of honorable standing, are not connected with the phenomena of so-called “mediumship”; and they do not, ordinarily, permit humans to witness their sometimes necessary physical activities or other contacts with the material world, as they are perceived by human senses.

    Greetings Michael!! I’ve been reading along to yours and Nigel’s conversation about science with great interest (and equal ignorance! …haha). Read Robert’s Seth Speaks and The Nature of Personal Reality in 1973-74 and had several personal “readings” and received my spirit names (2 readings, 2 different names – lucky and special me!) to eventually verify my agreement with Houdini on the matter of mediumship. Reincarnation, as I understood the Hindu and Buddhist versions didn’t ring true for me either, even though I was (and remain) a student of Zen and the Tao. I have likewise searched for reality-perspective from a broad spectrum of sources. The UB helped me gain focus and dimensional orientation while integrating so many diverse elements of fact/truth and effectively exposing others as historical, evolutionary, and mythological distortions of a more primitive and superstitious origin and nature. My biggest problem with Reincarnation was always its intended progress being prevented by the lack of progressive, experiential wisdom gained only by continuity of awareness and the collective aggregation and integration of BEING and BECOMING. And the charlatans and novices practicing and promoting such mediumship appear so obviously incompetent and lack true depth of presence and reality perspective. The community itself lacks substance and relevancy in my experienced opinion. Teachers teach us how to travel and see while mediums offer guided tours to nowhere, and back again to where you were/are. What has been learned or gained of value for the real journey of life and eternal adventure? :-) Best wishes all…u2 rich!

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