On behalf of those following along, thanks for this interesting discussion
Especially a big thank-you to Bradly for continually pointing us into the text, so that we might get a glimpse of so many things from the revelators’ point of view.
Thank you Nigel!!
We discover much upon re-reading papers 107 to 112. I like to speculate that our TAs make great use of their past experiences and that what we may interpret as past life experience would be imprints within our superconscious level (the soul) of the fact values recorded from the Adjuster from his past experiences with past inhabited humans. When, and if we may be priviledge to have such visions, humans take for granted that they have actually been there before. They are right in a certain sense cause their Adjuster was there. We just confuse our own experience with the one our Adjuster provides.
Very interesting Alain! So many people falsely believe in pre-existence of the soul or the personality we originate here during our first and only material life. It appears you believe (or speculate anyway) that this belief originates by the function and act of our TA’s who impart visions to us. Have you had such visions yourself? Have you found any examples of such a claim in the UB? There are real visions described…not one of which includes any flashbacks or implanted visions of previous lives of any other mortal.
Does our Adjuster provide us an experience? You say we “confuse our own experience with the one our Adjuster provides.” This sounds as if people have two different realities and experiences. Do you have some supporting text for this claim? I am unaware of such a teaching in the Papers. My experience is my own experience I think. My dual nature is my own too. As are my decisions. And it is by my decisions and more decisions and ever more decisions that I create my own experience and circle progress and identity and selfhood.
Definitely do the TA’s gain their own skills and wisdom by every experience….they too are experiential as well as from their existential source. But until fusion, I understand, they minster to mind and accompany us through the hammer and anvil of experience but they do not ever manipulate or determine our choices and freewill. We do benefit personally I am sure by the experience of our Adjuster but nowhere can I find any mention of what you claim above – that the Adjuster provides us an experience or “imprint” our soul with “fact values”. And what are “fact values” please? It appears you are claiming that we gain experiential wisdom not by our own experience but by the experience of others and of our TA’s transfer to soul? Is this accurate?
Interesting claim if I understand it. I am engaged in a discussion and discovery elsewhere about this very topic – Experiential Wisdom – where the teachings are being examined about wisdom that is transferred from one being to another and wisdom which is innate by origin and wisdom which is experiential. I can say I’ve not found anything which describes the transference of wisdom from any being to any other being in all of time and space…but I am keenly interested to find that. I hope to learn from your posted text those teachings. I am studying Papers 107-112 again now and believe your suggestion a good one!! I look forward to the transference of wisdom related text and the definition “fact values”. By the way….do you think the TA’s impart “facts” of universe reality to mind? Or primarily revelatory truth for our truth assurance progress in the Spirit? Are there facts we need to grow soul?
Thanks for being here Alain! I know you hope to support Michael’s search for the source and value of the common belief in pre-lives and recurring material lives discussed here. My only hope is that the Papers and their teachings are clearly articulated in that discussion. Visions of other people’s lives on other worlds delivered by our TA is a most interesting belief itself I think.
OK – I just re-read something within Paper 109:4.6 that refutes the theoretical idea I posted in my last post – that none of the Thought Adjusters have not been on this planet Earth, however the following quote does seem to go along with the idea that Alain recently posted regarding the TA’s gaining many experiences from mortals on many other worlds prior to teaming up with us on planet Earth: 109:6.1 (1200.1) Adjusters never fail; nothing worth surviving is ever lost; every meaningful value in every will creature is certain of survival, irrespective of the survival or nonsurvival of the meaning-discovering or evaluating personality. And so it is, a mortal creature may reject survival; still the life experience is not wasted; the eternal Adjuster carries the worth-while features of such an apparent life of failure over into some other world and there bestows these surviving meanings and values upon some higher type of mortal mind, one of survival capacity. No worth-while experience ever happens in vain; no true meaning or real value ever perishes. So I apologize to Bradly – I should have just kept reading all the posts. Today I also saw the UB quotes regarding mystic experiences and our night dreams – how they often drift into the somewhat unreliable subconscious mind rather than into the reliability of the superconscious mind. Thus, I also see how info gathered via hypnosis – which generally accesses the subconscious rather than the superconscious – cannot always be a reliable source to provide info, at least as it pertains to the topic of reincarnation. So it seems the only non-UB source of info regarding the topic of reincarnation that I have found thus far that corresponds to the UB is still the last chapter in book 3 of “Conversations With God” which explains how simultaneous realities may be sometimes misperceived by human minds as reincarnation. I would also say the wealth of research/documentation from a few hundred years ago provided by Emmanuel Swedenborg still seems to correspond fairly well with the UB’s teachings on reincarnation. Have a good week everyone.
Apology certainly and gladly accepted!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me repeat and reiterate something I frequently post on these topical threads to reduce the tensions created by opinions in opposition!!
I do not mean to and it would be completely inappropriate to claim my personal beliefs are correct and any other’s opinion are wrong because of any dispute or disagreement such differing opinions may reflect.
It is my hope and intention to compare, contrast, and confirm all beliefs to the contents of the Papers we study here together. I believe the authors have written that which they intend for us to take and study as a literal presentation and that they intentionally wrote what they mean and purposefully mean what they wrote…literally. The UB is not a code book or fantasy or metaphorical code book requiring the decipher of priests, the super intellect or educated, or religious or scientific scholar….although all of those should also enjoy a literal reading of the text!
So at no time and in no way should anything I post be taken as a declaration of fact or truth…it is intended as a statement of my own understanding of the contents of the text and the teachings of its authors only! While I have personally, eventually, and finally come to believe the claims of the authors, it is not necessary or important that any other student does so. We all come to the text with our own beliefs and perspective and philosophy…some of which will be confirmed and validated by the Papers and some which will conflict and even contradict the Papers. Our personal disagreement with or disbelief of the Papers or any part of the teachings is no sin or even vice! And is no obstacle to spiritualization and religious experience and the eternal adventure!
It is merely disagreement with or disbelief in the claims of the authors of the Papers. So be it. So let it be. No harm. No foul. Play on!
So….when I engage any opinion that I find in contrast to, conflict with, or contradictory of the Papers and I point out such contradiction, it is NOT a claim of right and wrong!! It is only an attempt to allow the Papers to speak for themselves and be clearly articulated in their own contents, intention, and meaning. And it is certainly true that some of the contents of the UB are unusual and complex and new and unique enough to defy a uniform understanding among students. That’s why discussion and discovery and study are good! We all learn by such discourse. I know I certainly do.
Now….the authors of the UB know truthseekers well and also knows those minds who grip tightly to their preconceptions and beliefs to the degree that belief transforms into intractable and entrenched prejudice. Let me repeat that every single person who ever read the UB comes to it with preconception and beliefs which contradict the text. Not one student or believer ever even once read the UB without preconception, conflict, and contradictory beliefs. Some are able to set aside disbelief and suspend prejudice in the pursuit of learning and enlightenment and truth. Others are not. Some arrive with a “pet evil” or misbehavior they are in love with and unwilling to relinquish or set aside.
163:2.7 (1802.3) Almost every human being has some one thing which is held on to as a pet evil, and which the entrance into the kingdom of heaven requires as a part of the price of admission. …
So…we must all be careful of our pet evils and prejudices…even me….hahahahaha!!
100:1.2 (1094.4) …….The chief inhibitors of growth are prejudice and ignorance.
Disagreement with the Papers is merely disagreement with the Papers. Prejudice is always an obstacle to growth. The UB is best read with an open mind and heart and a hope for the discovery and realization of truth. And I have found truth is where you find it and it can be found almost everywhere you look for it!! Which certainly does not make everything one reads or believes true!! Truth discernment takes work and reason and prayer….along with that open mind and heart.
100:4.1 (1097.5) Religious living is devoted living, and devoted living is creative living, original and spontaneous. New religious insights arise out of conflicts which initiate the choosing of new and better reaction habits in the place of older and inferior reaction patterns. New meanings only emerge amid conflict; and conflict persists only in the face of refusal to espouse the higher values connoted in superior meanings.
100:4.2 (1097.6) Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.
PS Post got spammed and repost got scrambled!! Oh well….carry on….. = (
Hi Bradly and everyone,
Indeed my thoughts derive from speculation on my part in my quest to discover more. I am also careful not to convince myself or others with my ideas.
110:4.3 (1207.3) Certain abrupt presentations of thoughts, conclusions, and other pictures of mind are sometimes the direct or indirect work of the Adjuster; but far more often they are the sudden emergence into consciousness of ideas which have been grouping themselves together in the submerged mental levels…
110:5.5 (1208.4) It is extremely dangerous to postulate as to the Adjuster content of the dream life. The Adjusters do work during sleep, but your ordinary dream experiences are purely physiologic and psychologic phenomena.
But I did, in a dream state, live a very strange experience. This only happened once in my life and it was a long time ago. I dreamed I was in mid air and was slowly gliding toward an old stone building which looked like the ones we sometimes see in films that characterize the 16th century. The fact is that the more I approched the building, the more I was recalling having being there. And just at the moment the memory was about to fully sprout in my mind, I woke up.
This experience really uplifted my interest for knowing more about life and after-life and I often thought this vision to be some form of stimulus from my TA to push me forward on the path he chose for me… but I could be in the field.
109:6.7 (1201.1) Everything of permanent value which is intrusted to an Adjuster is assured eternal survival. In certain instances the Monitor holds these possessions for bestowal on a mortal mind of future indwelling; in others…
In any case, I am glad my comments stirred up your creative input.
CheersPost removed…duplicate….see above!
Thank you very much Alain for sharing not only your extraordinary “experience”, but also for selecting Urantia Book quotes that may well be related to that experience! I personally believe that people can have such real experiences that may be of some value either for those who have such experiences or for others who hear of such experiences. In your case, it at least created a curiosity within you that led to you wanting to learn more about life beyond ordinary living. However, according to what Bradly & others have previously posted on this forum, your experience would be considered completely unreal nonsense. Maybe in some cases such experiences are pure fantasy. Yet other cases make an honestly curious person wonder about such topics as reincarnation. OR such cases should at least make one wonder if reincarnation is completely false and psychic ability does not truly exist (according to Bradly & others who have thoroughly studied the UB), yet details of someone else’s past life suddenly become known to a total stranger, then there must be some REAL mechanism(s) by which sometimes provable information is being extraordinarily transferred from person to person. There is so much info in the UB that I would hope it would at least give us rational clues as to what those mechanisms are. If & when such mechanisms can be properly identified in the UB, it may not only bring an end to a very widespread supposedly false worldview, but also it could dramatically affect consciousness research!
Related to properly identifying such mechanisms, I wanted to ask Bradly (& whoever else wants to reply) about Urantia Book 47:10.2 & 47:10.3 – sections which refer to both John the Revelator and the apostle Paul having authentic visions of Jerusem. Exactly how AND why were they able to see something that is normally invisible & unknowable to humans on planet Earth?! Also, of what value was such visions to John and Paul, much less to us when we have been repeatedly told by some on this forum that nothing except our own direct experiences of living on Earth has any potential value of being spiritualized after we die?! I am NOT trying to be a jerk by asking such questions; rather, I think such logical questions deserve logical answers.
Blessings to all of you!
Michael…hmmmm….you seem intent on misunderstanding me and putting words in my mouth I have never and would never utter. A pity. Oh well.
I have never said and do not believe that visions or personal revelation (the only source of real or valid visions by the agency of Spirit) are “completely unreal nonsense”….as I have already and even recently pointed out and reiterated. Are you reading my posts? Perhaps you might actually copy and paste my words rather than misquote and misrepresent them? Thank you.
The UB certainly explains and validates and verifies personal revelation and the more spiritized we become and spiritually progressed we are, the more likely and the more certain are “picturizations of destiny” presented by the Thought Adjusters. Two things: memories of other people’s lives on this or any other planet is irrelevant to our destiny! Second, such picturizations have a specific purpose to inspire the soul to the heavenly survival and experience.
The UB repeatedly points out and explains the very real dangers of believing that what happens in our dream state or subconscious is a result of true personal revelation rather than being what it is so very often – the mortal mind at mischief, creating fantasy and fiction and other forms of self deluding imagery by the very power of mind itself!! Alain has certainly demonstrated an awareness of and appreciation for this very real risk and danger. Does that danger and warning invalidate his experience??? Heck no. Who would say so? Me? Hahahaha….never. How might I know such a thing?????!!!!
Reincarnation is completely false….according to the Papers. Memory implants of other people’s lives is also false…according to the Papers. Believe whatever you will. I believe the long and very clear body and history of scientific documentation of false memory as is thoroughly substantiated by the Papers. You seek proofs of this preconception. So be it. Keep seeking. And keep believing in reincarnation. That is fine. No worries. Perhaps you are right and the UB is wrong!? That’s fine too. Belief in reincarnation is no great obstacle to spirit progress and eternal life….as has been said many time here already.
Prejudice however….that’s another and far more serious matter.
No one here has said that “…nothing except our own direct experiences of living on Earth has any potential value of being spiritualized after we die.” The experiences of the Creator Son and our Guardian Angels and our Thought Adjuster certainly have a great influence upon our personal experience. The experiences of our parents and tribal culture and our ancestors all have a great influence upon our personal experience as well. We are part of something much greater than self. Our very genes influence our personal experience too. In fact, such considerations are part of the TA selection process for choosing those mortal minds for their endowment experience.
The question is not whether an experience is real. Delusion is real. Hallucinations are real too. Fantasy is real. Or they are real to those who experience them. Visions and voices in the head as well. But what parts of our experience reflect universe reality or spiritual realities? Which experiences create or support faith? Faith is real. No matter its source or whether that source is fact or fiction or real or unreal or some combination. Faith is itself a function of reality – the reality of God and mind and spirit and personality and all beings in the universe of universes!
Does one’s belief in reincarnation deliver faith? Does one’s belief in visions or voices bring faith in God or the Great Other? Does one’s belief in the visions of other people’s lives bring us a faith experience? If so, then all of those primitivisms and superstitions have indeed contributed to one’s evolutionary religious experience and deliver the faith results of spirit progress to our soul.
Well done…..carry on!!
110:6.5 (1209.5) The Adjusters are always near you and of you, but rarely can they speak directly, as another being, to you. Circle by circle your intellectual decisions, moral choosings, and spiritual development add to the ability of the Adjuster to function in your mind; circle by circle you thereby ascend from the lower stages of Adjuster association and mind attunement, so that the Adjuster is increasingly enabled to register his picturizations of destiny with augmenting vividness and conviction upon the evolving consciousness of this God-seeking mind-soul.
Lost another one!! Edit function blows up my posts!! Please un-spam me again….. = (
Restored above…thank you!! = )
This post edited to remove the reposting/duplication of the post above.
Your clarifications are always read and appreciated Bradly Also, I think you have given me good reason to read all that I can regarding Thought Adjusters, especially since they work tirelessly upon their arrival/”invasion”…I admire the blunt ways in which the UB presents its information. This forum is nice in some ways, but I prefer to learn in ways that do not always conform to traditional ways of learning, so I may just quietly read the UB whenever I get the urges to do so. I still enjoy cross-referencing the UB with other sources. Blessings.
Adjusters are mentioned over 500 times in the Papers!
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