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That said, I see nothing in the TUB that prohibits homosexual relations on a sort of …. recreational? …. basis. I don’t see anything in TUB that says homosexuality is evil or unnatural, even. Plenty of other species engage in homosexual activities despite not being of procreational utility.
I didn’t ask about prohibitions or evil. I asked if the quote was indicating that the cooperation from a heterosexual couple is superior to the cooperation from a homosexual couple? Take the sex out of it. “A man and a woman, co-operating, even aside from family and offspring, are vastly superior in most ways to either two men or two women.”(84:1.9)
Oh, I know you weren’t asking about that; I just added it in my post because it’s something I have wondered about.
I think it is clear as day that TUB is saying that cooperation from a heterosexual couple is superior to that of a homosexual couple. I mean, it just makes sense, given that TUB states in a few places that male and female have complementary traits. So combining those two sets of differentiated traits would be superior to duplicating the same set of traits as in two men or two women.
Mara was also talking about gender Identity. Her post developed into the notion that gender identity or visualizing yourself as male when clearly you are female is synonymous with homosexuality.
So a man gives into his urge to be a woman and does all of the surgeries and alterations and hormonal chemistry necessary- including removing the Adam’s apple. He/she then marries or has relationship with a real man. Is this a homosexual relationship?
It seems quite different than two women or two men having open homosexual relationships without all of the mutilations.
Homosexuality is the child of self-assertion, and is the result of “bad judgement” 45.6:3
Can’t agree in total. The quote says that sex deficiency is from either circumstances or bad judgment. I was married to a closeted gay man for seven years. He may have had a genetic predisposition to homosexuality, but circumstances brought it to the fore having been raped by an uncle at an early age. Some genes are latent and are expressed under specific environmental circumstances. I don’t think the precise science has arrived yet to put this matter fully to rest. I think when it’s finally understood, there will prove to be both biologic and environmental components to the behavior, but I admit I’m speculating. Either way, it’s a deficit which must be attended to under better circumstances on the mansion worlds.
Quote 45:6.3 informs us there are social, intellectual, emotional and spiritual disadvantageous aspects to sex-deficiency. I think I understand the social and emotional aspects, but what do you think the intellectual and spiritual disadvantageous aspects are? Are those lacking in average sexual relationships suffering intellectually and spiritually too? How so? It’s a curiosity.
So a man gives into his urge to be a woman and does all of the surgeries and alterations and hormonal chemistry necessary- including removing the Adam’s apple. He/she then marries or has relationship with a real man. Is this a homosexual relationship? It seems quite different than two women or two men having open homosexual relationships without all of the mutilations.
It’s still a relationship between a man and a man. The question for me is, are there people born with a feminine-type personality in a physically male body? Are there feminine and masculine personality patterns? Personality cannot change. Personality is the organizing force with which selfhood is arranged. I remember studying this question in TUB years ago but I can’t remember what I concluded, if anything.
Just speculating here, but I think there is a good chance that hormonal balance and/or pituitary gland malfunction may be a cause of gender dysphoria and possibly homosexuality as well. Anyone who has taken medication to tweak their hormone balance has experienced for themselves how extremely sensitive our bodies, moods, sex drive, etc. are to even miniscule imbalances of hormones.
I have a niece who, at 4 years old, adamantly stated that she was not going to be a mother when she grew up, she was going to be “the father”. And, indeed, now that she is in her 20s she is living a homosexual lifestyle and dresses and carries herself more masculine (she is not living *as* a man, she refers to herself as she and her, but she is very tom-boyish, as we used to say).
I don’t see anything in TUB that says homosexuality is evil or unnatural, even. Plenty of other species engage in homosexual activities despite not being of procreational utility.Other species like dogs? My dog tries it but I don’t know if he’s really making decisions. He’s just reacting to instinct, just like when he eats various piles of turkey, deer or rabbit poop that sometimes gets him sick.
I don’t see anything in TUB either that says homosexuality is evil. However, like any recreational activity we are subject to decision making that is right or wrong. Like if this recreational sex is cheating on a partner, breaking a promise of loyalty or if the act precipitates disease like aids, or other recreations that involves numbing your mind with drugs and related activities that impacts you and your community negatively. There is potential evil in such recreation and sin when you make a choice to do it when you know what the negatives are.
So a man gives into his urge to be a woman and does all of the surgeries and alterations and hormonal chemistry necessary- including removing the Adam’s apple. He/she then marries or has relationship with a real man. Is this a homosexual relationship? It seems quite different than two women or two men having open homosexual relationships without all of the mutilations.
It’s still a relationship between a man and a man. The question for me is, are there people born with a feminine-type personality in a physically male body? Are there feminine and masculine personality patterns? Personality cannot change. Personality is the organizing force with which selfhood is arranged. I remember studying this question in TUB years ago but I can’t remember what I concluded, if anything.
if personality, a gift from the Father is male, female specific, how could there be any mistakes?
I have a niece who, at 4 years old, adamantly stated that she was not going to be a mother when she grew up, she was going to be “the father”.
Interesting that this decision was made before the arrival of her Adjuster. The sex urge is present at a very early age. Perhaps another cause of homosexual behavior has its roots in very early distortions to the basic sex drive within an immature mind. Just another way to think about it. No answers here . . . all speculation.
if personality, a gift from the Father is male, female specific, how could there be any mistakes?
This quote is the closest I found which suggests that there are feminine and masculine personality patterns, but the quote refers to them as personality trends. Nevertheless, the trend towards either feminine personality or masculine personality stays with us forever.
(939.1) 84:6.6 Men and women need each other in their morontial and spiritual as well as in their mortal careers. The differences in viewpoint between male and female persist even beyond the first life and throughout the local and superuniverse ascensions. And even in Havona, the pilgrims who were once men and women will still be aiding each other in the Paradise ascent. Never, even in the Corps of the Finality, will the creature metamorphose so far as to obliterate the personality trends that humans call male and female; always will these two basic variations of humankind continue to intrigue, stimulate, encourage, and assist each other; always will they be mutually dependent on co-operation in the solution of perplexing universe problems and in the overcoming of manifold cosmic difficulty.
The reason I bring this up is because it might be possible that the mind of an individual, which is supposed to be competent in producing a suitable body for the personality, may not always be competent in producing an ideal body, for the particular personality pattern (fem/masc) bestowed upon it. God the Father is the one who bestows personality, whereas mind and life is a function of the Infinite Spirit. Can there be a situation in which perfect synchrony is not possible? Or perhaps there are other reasons. I don’t think we know at what point personality is bestowed. Is it at the same time mind is developing the body or afterward. It’s a mystery.
p483:9 42:12.2 Mind is always creative. The mind endowment of an individual animal, mortal, morontian, spirit ascender, or finality attainer is always competent to produce a suitable and serviceable body for the living creature identity. But the presence phenomenon of a personality or the pattern of an identity, as such, is not a manifestation of energy, either physical, mindal, or spiritual. The personality form is the pattern aspect of a living being; it connotes the arrangement of energies, and this, plus life and motion, is the mechanism of creature existence.
“The differences in viewpoint between male and female persist even beyond the first life and throughout the local and superuniverse ascensions. And even in Havona, the pilgrims who were once men and women will still be aiding each other in the Paradise ascent. Never, even in the Corps of the Finality, will the creature metamorphose so far as to obliterate the personality trends that humans call male and female”
Sorry to crop the quote but don’t you think the authors Could have used a little stronger language when they state “differences in viewpoints “?
think about it this way: could Michael do the job or take the place of our universe mother spirit, or could she do his job, take his place?
No matter what mind is capable of I don’t think it is possible for a man to be a mother or a woman to be a father.
but if these urges to be what you clearly are not and it is a mental defect, well then we are back to that dreaded eugenics thread.
Quote 45:6.3 informs us there are social, intellectual, emotional and spiritual disadvantageous aspects to sex-deficiency. I think I understand the social and emotional aspects, but what do you think the intellectual and spiritual disadvantageous aspects are? Are those lacking in average sexual relationships suffering intellectually and spiritually too? How so? It’s a curiosity.For certain specific reasons, I have spent a lot of time speculating about the answers to these very questions Bonita, and I’m not going to get into what those reasons are right now. I think that the sexual experience has two main reasons for being a part of life. First it functions to procreate offspring. Second it fosters the need for developing self-control. The sex drive is overwhelming therefore it lays down a foundation, an obvious place to learn how to control oneself by the choices we make. To me the idea that we are born to be inclined to one type of sexual behavior or another is irrelevant, and so are the unfortunate experiences of having been molested when young. It’s still boils down to choice. And that choice is always a matter of overcoming evil with good, of learning how to be in self control, especially regarding how we are supposed to learn that it’s not about our will in the first place, it’s about “Your will be done.” In general, the sexual realm of human activity is over-emphazised and has been highly subjected by the outworkings of the self-assertion doctrine of the Caligastia rebellion in my opinion. It’s “no holds barred” so to speak and now in these modern high tech times it’s taken an even more prominent place than before. It’s massively out of control.This quote is the closest I found which suggests that there are feminine and masculine personality patterns, but the quote refers to them as personality trends. Nevertheless, the trend towards either feminine personality or masculine personality stays with us forever. (939.1) 84:6.6 Men and women need each other in their morontial and spiritual as well as in their mortal careers. The differences in viewpoint between male and female persist even beyond the first life and throughout the local and superuniverse ascensions. And even in Havona, the pilgrims who were once men and women will still be aiding each other in the Paradise ascent. Never, even in the Corps of the Finality, will the creature metamorphose so far as to obliterate the personality trends that humans call male and female; always will these two basic variations of humankind continue to intrigue, stimulate, encourage, and assist each other; always will they be mutually dependent on co-operation in the solution of perplexing universe problems and in the overcoming of manifold cosmic difficulty.
I already posted this reference Bonita in my opening remarks which led to my original question – Do you think gender identity is a “dual phase of personality manifestation” or personality trend we call male and female?
So, the choice question is interesting and I don’t claim to have the answer. I will share that I have a good friend who is gay and he told me quite a bit about his experience. As a teenager, he tried to establish relationships with girls. At one point, he engaged in sexual relations with a girl and he explained to me that being near her, physically, was absolutely repulsive to him. Being close to her naked body literally made him feel sick. He was acutely aware of how hurt his parents would be if he came out as gay so he agonized over it for years.
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