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MidiChlorian wrote: Pray not for what God can do for us, but pray for the wisdom to make changes to do for ourselves and the courage to make the right changes which will not need correction in the future.It seems the evolution of peace on our world is very slow, especially when we can envision what a world would look like if it achieved one of the stages of light and life.Bonita wrote: I’m wondering what your interpretation of self-mastery is.One aspect of self-mastery is all about attitude adjustment. Getting riled up about someone or something that happened, for example. Attitude adjustment is about how I think about and process things pertaining to real life situations in my inner life. It’s about choosing how to think, and, it is about self-correction, self-restraint, discretion. It’s about integrity and accountability. It’s about getting wisdom and wisdom can grow out of the trials and errors of experience, unless the person is fixated on something and refuses, at least for the time being, not to be open to learning by experience. Self-mastery is what I am after.
That is a very remarkable statement Midi and it sounds gnostic to me. Gnostics hate the material life created by the demiurge.
Actually it is not Gnostic in nature, and if your statement as indicated above, that the Demiurge, had created life, or actually this physical environment, it is incorrect, in that the Demiurge’s Mother created this physical environment for the Demiurge to live in. It was the Demiurge who upon realizing Its being, thought that this creation was from Its own creation, but later repented, which is buried in many other Gnostic codex’s. Nevertheless, as to my other statement, I present the following from Luke: 14.
25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Even though these words were not presented in kind in the UB does not indicate that they were not spoken.
(41.6) 2:6.8 God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe.
As to my previous statement regarding this subject:
(1220.7) 111:4.8 You cannot completely control the external world — environment. It is the creativity of the inner world that is most subject to your direction because there your personality is so largely liberated from the fetters of the laws of antecedent causation. There is associated with personality a limited sovereignty of will.
(1220.8) 111:4.9 Since this inner life of man is truly creative, there rests upon each person the responsibility of choosing as to whether this creativity shall be spontaneous and wholly haphazard or controlled, directed, and constructive. How can a creative imagination produce worthy children when the stage whereon it functions is already preoccupied by prejudice, hate, fears, resentments, revenge, and bigotries?
(1220.9) 111:4.10 Ideas may take origin in the stimuli of the outer world, but ideals are born only in the creative realms of the inner world. Today the nations of the world are directed by men who have a superabundance of ideas, but they are poverty-stricken in ideals. That is the explanation of poverty, divorce, war, and racial hatreds.
(1220.10) 111:4.11 This is the problem: If freewill man is endowed with the powers of creativity in the inner man, then must we recognize that freewill creativity embraces the potential of freewill destructivity. And when creativity is turned to destructivity, you are face to face with the devastation of evil and sin — oppression, war, and destruction. Evil is a partiality of creativity which tends toward disintegration and eventual destruction. All conflict is evil in that it inhibits the creative function of the inner life — it is a species of civil war in the personality.
Mara wrote: Self-mastery is what I am after.They say that trustworthiness is the true measure of self-mastery (28:6.13). I think trustworthiness is about attaining divinity of character. Jesus is the epitome of the attainment of divinity of character capable by a human being. There’s no doubt that a living relationship with him as the Spirit of Truth is a critical part of self-mastery.
143:2.4 By the old way you seek to suppress, obey, and conform to the rules of living; by the new way you are first transformed by the Spirit of Truth and thereby strengthened in your inner soul by the constant spiritual renewing of your mind, and so are you endowed with the power of the certain and joyous performance of the gracious, acceptable, and perfect will of God. Forget not — it is your personal faith in the exceedingly great and precious promises of God that ensures your becoming partakers of the divine nature. Thus by your faith and the spirit’s transformation, you become in reality the temples of God, and his spirit actually dwells within you. If, then, the spirit dwells within you, you are no longer bondslaves of the flesh but free and liberated sons of the spirit. The new law of the spirit endows you with the liberty of self–mastery in place of the old law of the fear of self-bondage and the slavery of self-denial.
MidiChlorian wrote: Actually it is not Gnostic in nature, and if your statement as indicated above, that the Demiurge, had created life, or actually this physical environment, it is incorrect, in that the Demiurge’s Mother created this physical environment for the Demiurge to live in. It was the Demiurge who upon realizing Its being, thought that this creation was from Its own creation, but later repented, which is buried in many other Gnostic codex’s.Well that depends on whether you are a Sethian or a Valentinian.
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
I’m really sorry you think that something written by a physician and traveling companion of Paul’s, who wasn’t present for any of Jesus’ teaching (neither was Paul) is a more reliable source of truth than the UB. We are told that Luke reinterpreted Jesus’ sayings in line with his own personal beliefs. Luke was essentially a communist, he was a strong believer in social equality and communal living. It would make sense that he misunderstood the Master’s words about family and preferred to interpret it to mean that love of the collective trumps love of the individual. (Hmmm, sounds like the Borg)
This is what he actually said:
154:6.5 It was just another of those instances in which his earth family could not comprehend that he must be about his Father’s business. And so Mary and his brothers were deeply hurt when, notwithstanding that he paused in his speaking to receive the message, instead of his rushing out to greet them, they heard his musical voice speak with increased volume: “Say to my mother and my brothers that they should have no fear for me. The Father who sent me into the world will not forsake me; neither shall any harm come upon my family. Bid them be of good courage and put their trust in the Father of the kingdom. But, after all, who is my mother and who are my brothers?” And stretching forth his hands toward all of his disciples assembled in the room, he said: “I have no mother; I have no brothers. Behold my mother and behold my brethren! For whosoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my mother, my brother, and my sister.”
Followed by:
154:6.12 But he did say to David Zebedee as he entered the boat in hasty flight: “Tell my mother and my brothers that I appreciate their coming, and that I intended to see them. Admonish them to find no offense in me but rather to seek for a knowledge of the will of God and for grace and courage to do that will.”
Bonita wrote: When Jesus said, “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it,” what did he mean to you, or to anyone, for that matter. I think it has a lot to do with being a peacemaker.Let me tell you a personal story. Long, long ago I was saved or as I like to say I was salvaged. Anyhow, after that I deeply thought about the matter. I tried to imagine in my mind the worst case and hypothetical scenario I could be in that would be a great test of my salvation, my faith. I imagined being imprisoned in a country not ruled by the rule of law. I tried to image myself in the most depraved, deplorable and abhorrent conditions there. I imagined receiving the worst of the worst treatment there. I decided they could kill me, but could never take away from me my faith ever!01:3:16 12. Goes right on worshiping God in spite of anything and everything. Dares to declare, “Even though he slay me, yet will I serve him.” [See PAPER 101]Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet I will trust him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.Though as Midi reminded me earlier, I should keep my faith to myself. Yet Stephen and many others after him died proclaiming their faith, but Stephen also attacked the traditional Jewish temple practices, and that was a no-no. His faith, however, did win over Saul of Tarsus who also was later saved on the Damascus road.It goes without saying I have not experienced laying down my life for my friends, as Jesus did. Can I? Will I be required to do this? Don’t know. Maybe I will have a long horrible illness in which to demonstrate my faith to those who care for me.Jesus talked about selfishness and gaining in a worldly sense, without regard to one’s soul when he said:158:7:5 “After they had recovered from the first shock of Jesus’ stinging rebuke, and before they resumed their journey, the Master spoke further: “If any man would come after me, let him disregard himself, take up his responsibilities daily, and follow me. For whosoever would save his life selfishly, shall lose it, but whosoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s, shall save it. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul? What would a man give in exchange for eternal life? Be not ashamed of me and my words in this sinful and hypocritical generation, even as I will not be ashamed to acknowledge you when in glory I appear before my Father in the presence of all the celestial hosts. Nevertheless, many of you now standing before me shall not taste death till you see this kingdom of God come with power.”The choice is to be with God, or not. To do his bidding, or not.
I’m really sorry you think that something written by a physician and traveling companion of Paul’s, who wasn’t present for any of Jesus’ teaching (neither was Paul) is a more reliable source of truth than the UB.
Actually I don’t “think that something written by a physician” or that anything presented by a physician, including yourself, can be considered as a reliable. But truth is in the mind’s eye of a believer, and experience or lack of it can adjust and warp the use of knowledge, when the perception of knowing cannot be validated but through the mind. If you think that Paul, knew nothing of Jesus, then you forget that Jesus was with him, and turned his mind to understand Him from within, yet for some, unless it is written with words cannot always see the handwriting within the text presented. Jesus’ spirit was with Paul, in order to continue the message of the Kingdom within, yet even through not physically present but being guided by the Spirit of Truth, should account for something. If the UB is the only source of truth, then truth is one-sided to the authors of its text, and if the mind is not open to many possibilities, the true truth cannot be assessed when by their own admission the UB is incomplete. Therefore until one takes into account all of the truth which can be presented on any one topic, can we not consider the truth without all of the information, therefore the UB can NOT be considered absolute. But, if you wish to believe that it is, then that is your right, but I also have the right to my opinion without being badgered by someone who thinks that their opinion is the only opinion that counts, therefore there can never be an honest debate between anyone, if they are NOT open to discussion. So, too is the history of War and Peace, where there are two or more sides which feel that their position is absolute, and that compromise will never be placed on the table, where each feels that the other has no right to exist.
I’m wondering what your interpretation of self-mastery is. When Jesus said, “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it,” what did he mean to you, or to anyone, for that matter. I think it has a lot to do with being a peacemaker.
Me here: Greetings all…sorry to be so absent…lots of vicissitudes at hand right now. My interpretation of this quote (also within the gospels) has always been that of the focus and intent of the individual….to “save” my life is all about me, to do that which serves my interests; while, conversely, those who will “lose” their “self” in love and service, will find progress and purpose that is divine in nature. It’s about the transfer of the seat of our identity I think. Similar to he who would be first, etc. The sayings of Jesus are often illuminated by the Eastern view of duality and the obstacle of “self” to enlightening and purpose.
On the broader topic of war and peace, it is well documented that the progressive technologies which propel civilization forward originate and find development resources primarily, almost without exception, from the war machine. From steel to digitization, war focuses resources like no other cause. This has been especially true on our world of mixed epochs and without Prince and Garden to divert such aggression into less horrific forms over the millennia, which has allowed barbarity to, nonetheless, deliver the motive and means for foundational technological and scientific progress which has underlain societal transformation. That long term development now leads to great acceleration on many progressive fronts today. If one believes the Most Highs rule and can see the work of our unseen friends in saving us from ourselves and solving the problems created by our former solutions in a long, historical chain of events, it is not so difficult to become optimistic that, despite ourselves, the celestials move us along into epochal transformation. Interesting.
It seems the evolution of peace on our world is very slow, especially when we can envision what a world would look like if it achieved one of the stages of light and life.
Me here: Actually, I don’t think we need L&L to have achieved far more peace than Urantia has and yearns for if we were not so sullied by our “leaders” heretofore. Urantia is one unique place in all the universes of time and I mean truly unique in many ways that affect and reflect our epochal progressions and lack thereof, as depicted in text on a “normal” world. How many worlds of rebellion had a Prince that did not rebel? Or a Garden that did not default? Or a Teacher or Majesterial Son on-planet already – some celestial who persisted in example and leadership? Urantia was left with not a single celestial leader on-world and not a single example of higher knowledge and pattern from which to help in the recovery from rebellion. We have progressed dumb, deaf, and blind by comparison to most if not all other worlds “isolated” by rebellion. We are beyond isolation IMO.
And this may have been the compelling reason for Michael’s choice of Urantia as his final bestowal mission. And when we trace the planetary progress through multiple epochs simultaneously and yet not uniformly since the Master’s gift of the Spirit of Truth, it is apparent what a wild card accelerant that event was to our world. We face many dangers in our prosperity and materialism it is true. But such progress as has unfolded in such a brief time of universe reckoning is probably rather breath taking for our celestial friends I think. Our time unit perspective makes us believe in no progress or glacial progress and we are impatient for greater and faster progress while, in reality, progress has been monumental and quick in its evolutionary out workings I believe.
We now approach a time when the power of commerce trumps the commerce of war; sovereignty is being broken down by financial inter-dependence in ways never known to our world before. There is a growing convergence of mutual self interest that is served by cooperation, trade, travel, multi-lingualism, and peace making. It is true this new force for change will take time to coalesce into a new dynamic – the flux cycle will persist and so will war for a season still. But this is a whole new influence and concurrent with the world wide web’s influence of instant global communication and knowledge access. These two factors will do much to turn our swords into plowshares – or so I conjecture based on who’s in charge around here truly and their ability to leverage humanity’s mistakes and misguided priorities to the work of planetary upliftment over time.
I will not see this unfold perhaps. But knowing our past story and our inevitable outcome, I witness miraculous transformation on a planetary scale. War has had no small part in that change and its acceleration, even during my brief life as witness.
One note on peace makers – they do not negotiate a settlement of give and take between factions I do not think, so much as they help bridge two or more sides to a place of mutual benefit….and the reduction of fear is a significant element in such a practice. The self serving are not yet peace makers no matter their eloquence and success in negotiation. One cannot include self as a peace maker by the example Jesus provided.
It seems the evolution of peace on our world is very slow, especially when we can envision what a world would look like if it achieved one of the stages of light and life.
Actually Mara, we have been told, even though as a Biblical story, what would occur if one of the stages of light and life were achieved especially if these stages were achieved as an unbalanced stage. We can look at the story about the building of the tower of Babel where all the world spook one language, which is one stage of light and life. Also, another stage which has been envisioned as a one world government, where it has been proclaimed by at least one world leader as the “New World Order”, but upon thinking that this might be associated with a one world government, would have been misinterpreted as a one world corporation where the business of governing the world would fall on a Corporate entity which has no personality structure and where people are considered as cannon fodder, and the control of capital and those who control this capital as the board of directors of this world. When one looks at what was done at the tower of Babel to discourage this one-sided approach to light and life, why would anyone think that the Wars of this world have not been manipulated by the powers that be, as a warning of what would come should light and life not be balanced to include all peoples of this world.
In the Book of Revelation where the mark of the beast has been noted as a number, 666, where nothing will be bought and sold without this number, has already come to pass, in that the Universal Product Code, (UPC) stamped on all products bought and sold today, has embedded within its numbers an unseen 6-6-6 number used as fencing. The ironic thing about the use of these numbers, 6, that they were first 5’s, but had to be changed to 6’s to make the future mathematical algorithm to work out. So, in what direction are we heading, as regarding light and life?
It goes without saying I have not experienced laying down my life for my friends, as Jesus did. Can I? Will I be required to do this? Don’t know. Maybe I will have a long horrible illness in which to demonstrate my faith to those who care for me.
Sounds morose. Do you really think that you have to sacrifice yourself on some level in order to prove your loyalty to God? God doesn’t ask anyone to sacrifice themselves, even for their friends. He asks them to sacrifice their sense of self-importance, to put aside the self in the interest of others . . . self-forgetfulness.
180:5.12 The old religion taught self–sacrifice; the new religion teaches only self-forgetfulness, enhanced self-realization in conjoined social service and universe comprehension.
You will not find yourself unless you forget yourself. Trying to save yourself will never succeed until you forget yourself, lose yourself in service to God. “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it”
Cant find it but the scenario painted in TUB where the face of the cave man gives unpleasant impressions until the real motivation is uncovered which is his willingness to lay down his life to protect his family – the impression then becomes understandable and even admirable.
This is at least one face of war. Does it automatically become ugly when the situation grows beyond immediate family?
I call it “stuck being human”
Here it is Nelson:
(1098.2) 100:4.5 In the mind’s eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times — a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them.*
Mara wrote: It goes without saying I have not experienced laying down my life for my friends, as Jesus did. Can I? Will I be required to do this? Don’t know. Maybe I will have a long horrible illness in which to demonstrate my faith to those who care for me.
Sounds morose. Do you really think that you have to sacrifice yourself on some level in order to prove your loyalty to God? God doesn’t ask anyone to sacrifice themselves, even for their friends. He asks them to sacrifice their sense of self-importance, to put aside the self in the interest of others . . . self-forgetfulness.
180:5.12 The old religion taught self-sacrifice; the new religion teaches only self-forgetfulness, enhanced self-realization in conjoined social service and universe comprehension.
You will not find yourself unless you forget yourself. Trying to save yourself will never succeed until you forget yourself, lose yourself in service to God. “Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it”
It would seem that the term “self-forgetfulness” might be, being associated with, something different than what the UB seems to have initially given as to its implied meaning:
(51.12) 3:5.13 8. Is unselfishness — the spirit of self-forgetfulness — desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.
Where by “unselfishness” or “not selfish” would not necessarily coincide with “self-forgetfulness” if it is assumed that it might imply that one should be forgetful of oneself, or as it might be assumed forgetful of one’s own past discretions between good and evil, which everyone has the potential of. Where the UB’s definition is correct even as the definition of “self-forgetful” follows along the same line:
“self-forgetful” – adjective – 1. forgetful or not thinking of one’s own advantage, interest, etc.
“unselfish” – adjective – 1. not selfish; disinterested; generous; altruistic.
Therefore, to apply “self-forgetfulness” of oneself, would also imply to “sacrifice yourself on some level in order to prove your loyalty to God”, where what you would do for the least of God’s creatures, just might be a sacrifice for some, who might be considered as more than the least of God’s creatures. “There but for the grace of God, go I”, where as Mara’s quote above is synonymous to my own condition, and can relate.
Bradly wrote: Greetings all…sorry to be so absent…I’ve missed your voice Bradly. Thanks for adding your comments. At least my statement about the slowness of the evolution of peace relative to light ‘n life(the evolution of peace on our world is very slow, especially when we can envision what a world would look like if it achieved one of the stages of light and life) was meaningful to me.Bonita wrote: Sounds morose. Do you really think that you have to sacrifice yourself on some level in order to prove your loyalty to God?No. He knows all about me – inside and out.MidiChlorian wrote: Actually Mara, we have been told, even though as a Biblical story. . . .I’ve been finding a lot in the Bible that is very good Midi. Not by analyzing references in the Bible, but rather by reading those passages that stir my soul.
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