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At the moment when Havona was “created” was that the extent of the Grand Universe? The Master Universe?
Wouldn’t there be outer space levels where the current superuniverses were evolving? It seems to me that the Central Universe, along with the personalities living there were eventuated simultaneously, since on the absonite level there are no beginnings or endings. Wouldn’t that include the Seven Master Spirits whose job it is to organize and run the seven superuniverses? Also, it would include the Seven Supreme Power Directors and their seven flash stations which direct energy out into the superuniverses. There would have to be “something” to flash into, something to organize and run.
At the moment when Havona was “created” was that the extent of the Grand Universe? The Master Universe?
Apologies for my confusion as to the intent and meaning of the question Michael…but the Grand and Master Universes include all that is inhabited (at least) which includes the evolutionary universes of time and space (and there are the outer space level as Bonita mentions for consideration)….many and much of which are not yet created or completed so I think the obvious answer to your question is “No”. Which leads me to believe your question is not obvious at all. Care to elaborate on what you mean by “extent”?
32:0.1 (357.1) A LOCAL universe is the handiwork of a Creator Son of the Paradise order of Michael. It comprises one hundred constellations, each embracing one hundred systems of inhabited worlds. Each system will eventually contain approximately one thousand inhabited spheres.
32:0.2 (357.2) These universes of time and space are all evolutionary. The creative plan of the Paradise Michaels always proceeds along the path of gradual evolvement and progressive development of the physical, intellectual, and spiritual natures and capacities of the manifold creatures who inhabit the varied orders of spheres comprising such a local universe.
Elsewhere there is a posted question about the extent and definition of “the universe of universes” and the definition of the Grand and the Master universes. Unresolved and tangential there….let’s get some clarity here. Thanks for asking.
Bonita and Bradley,
I apologize for the poorly worded question. Restated: Was the space that the defines the GU (7 SUs and the Central Universe) created at the same moment Havona came into existence? And same question for the whole MU – when was the space for the evolving outer space levels created?
Consider the eventuation of the Master Architects. And remember all those huge gravity bodies?
I’m attaching that old Artist’s Conception of the Master Universe for reference.
I wonder why it matters? And I don’t mean to be glib or insulting…but what’s behind the query?
I can only recite the text itself which evidently does not satisfy the question(s) in your mind?
12:0.3 (128.3) We are convinced, from the study of physical law and from the observation of the starry realms, that the infinite Creator is not yet manifest in finality of cosmic expression, that much of the cosmic potential of the Infinite is still self-contained and unrevealed. To created beings the master universe might appear to be almost infinite, but it is far from finished; there are still physical limits to the material creation, and the experiential revelation of the eternal purpose is still in progress.
1. Space Levels of the Master Universe
12:1.1 (128.4) The universe of universes is not an infinite plane, a boundless cube, nor a limitless circle; it certainly has dimensions. The laws of physical organization and administration prove conclusively that the whole vast aggregation of force-energy and matter-power functions ultimately as a space unit, as an organized and co-ordinated whole. The observable behavior of the material creation constitutes evidence of a physical universe of definite limits. The final proof of both a circular and delimited universe is afforded by the, to us, well-known fact that all forms of basic energy ever swing around the curved path of the space levels of the master universe in obedience to the incessant and absolute pull of Paradise gravity.
12:1.2 (128.5) The successive space levels of the master universe constitute the major divisions of pervaded space — total creation, organized and partially inhabited or yet to be organized and inhabited. If the master universe were not a series of elliptical space levels of lessened resistance to motion, alternating with zones of relative quiescence, we conceive that some of the cosmic energies would be observed to shoot off on an infinite range, off on a straight-line path into trackless space; but we never find force, energy, or matter thus behaving; ever they whirl, always swinging onward in the tracks of the great space circuits.
12:1.3 (129.1) Proceeding outward from Paradise through the horizontal extension of pervaded space, the master universe is existent in six concentric ellipses, the space levels encircling the central Isle:
12:1.4 (129.2) 1. The Central Universe — Havona.
12:1.5 (129.3) 2. The Seven Superuniverses.
12:1.6 (129.4) 3. The First Outer Space Level.
12:1.7 (129.5) 4. The Second Outer Space Level.
12:1.8 (129.6) 5. The Third Outer Space Level.
12:1.9 (129.7) 6. The Fourth and Outermost Space Level.We are not told here if all of this came into existence at the same time as Havona. But we are told that the act of creation is an on-going process….probably eternally and infinitely….the infinite is gaining territorial definition over time within timelessness….something described in the first quote of the Paper:
12:0.1 (128.1) THE immensity of the far-flung creation of the Universal Father is utterly beyond the grasp of finite imagination; the enormousness of the master universe staggers the concept of even my order of being…..
12:1.16 (130.2) The central universe is the creation of eternity; the seven superuniverses are the creations of time; the four outer space levels are undoubtedly destined to eventuate-evolve the ultimacy of creation. And there are those who maintain that the Infinite can never attain full expression short of infinity; and therefore do they postulate an additional and unrevealed creation beyond the fourth and outermost space level, a possible ever-expanding, never-ending universe of infinity. In theory we do not know how to limit either the infinity of the Creator or the potential infinity of creation, but as it exists and is administered, we regard the master universe as having limitations, as being definitely delimited and bounded on its outer margins by open space.
Theoretically speaking….all potentials and eventuations of all potentials were created when infinity and eternity were created – except, of course, that they never were created as in having a beginning, for truly eternity has no beginning and infinity has no dimensional limits….at least to those who can comprehend such matters….which does not include me….hahahaha.
Was the space that the defines the GU (7 SUs and the Central Universe) created at the same moment Havona came into existence?
Yes. It’s always been there and always will be there. Space was not created; it has no beginning. Space originates from Paradise which also has no beginning.
Space was not created; it has no beginning. Space originates in Paradise which also has no beginning.
Is space non-physical then?
Is space non-physical then?
Space is the womb for physical matter. 11:5.9
Hi mehill – thanks for pointing to the extraordinary issue of the nature and extent of space.
You wrote:
Restated: Was the space that the defines the GU (7 SUs and the Central Universe) created at the same moment Havona came into existence? And same question for the whole MU – when was the space for the evolving outer space levels created?
Consider the eventuation of the Master Architects. And remember all those huge gravity bodies?
I expect this “eventuation” aspect will help us to approach the question. For example, if Space is actually “absolutely ultimate“,
(1297.6, 118:3.5) Space comes the nearest of all nonabsolute things to being absolute. Space is apparently absolutely ultimate.”
then it must be independent of time is some truly profound way. Also, we’ll need to distinguish between activities (eventuations and evolutions) within space, from the actual arena of space itself. As Bonita mentioned:
(123.2, 11:5.9) “[…]; space is the womb of several forms of matter and prematter.”
For me, one of the UB’s most thrilling cosmological facts is what the authors reveal about how (primary eventuated and associate transcendental) Paradise Master Force Organizers, in collaboration with the “absonite Architects of the Master Universe” (Foreword, 0:12.6, 16.3) somehow condense “space potency” (a potential of space?) into the “pure energy” of segregata, and thence the “[…] mass-movemented, mighty-tensioned,… ” modes of emergent ultimata:
(470.2, 42:2.11) “[…] This is the powerful-directional, mass-movemented, mighty-tensioned, and forcible-reacting energy — gigantic energy systems set in motion by the activities of the primary force organizers. This primary or puissant energy is not at first definitely responsive to the Paradise-gravity pull though probably yielding an aggregate-mass or space-directional response to the collective group of absolute influences operative from the nether side of Paradise. When energy emerges to the level of initial response to the circular and absolute-gravity grasp of Paradise, the primary force organizers give way to the functioning of their secondary associates.”
My guess is that this evolving response of the adjusted potencies of space, relative to the presence of Paradise, will be the insight that allows science to begin crawling over the road-blocking old model of an inflationary big bang cosmology. But we’ll need the mathematics of “transcendental causation” (469.8, 42:2.8) to help nail down this slippery concept,
(469.8, 42:2.8) “Primordial force is seemingly reactive to transcendental causation in proportion to absoluteness.”
As Bonita wrote:
Yes. It’s always been there and always will be there. Space was not created; it has no beginning. Space originates from Paradise which also has no beginning.
Indeed. In fact, in my most whimsical intuitive speculations, I imagine space as an actual excavation within the extent of paradise stuff (think “womb”). Notice that space potency is also called “absoluta” (469.6, 42:2.6), while the actual stuff of Paradise is named “absolutum“. (120.1) 11:2.9). Here I’m fishing for the possibility that absoluta (space potency) is somehow a phenomenal phase of absolutum (the actual stuff of Paradise).
Regarding those Master Architects, I always enjoy this paragraph:
(480.3, 42:9.5) “Physical stability associated with biologic elasticity is present in nature only because of the well-nigh infinite wisdom possessed by the Master Architects of creation. Nothing less than transcendental wisdom could ever design units of matter which are at the same time so stable and so efficiently flexible.”
“units of matter which are at the same time so stable and so efficiently flexible.” Amazing what they can do with ultimatons, that undiscoverable condensate of a condensate of space potency. Which reminds me, if absoluta is some pre-actualized phase of absolutum, and if we model the ultimaton as a minimal vortex in segregata, then a fully contracted ball of ultimatons (as found in dark gravity objects) may be related directly to the material monota-absolutum of Paradise. Recall how the technique of making matter respond to the presence of Paradise depends on… ultimatons. See (465.2, 41:9.2), (476.5, 42:6.3).
Nigel
Nigel,
Thank you for your astute comments.
I confess, that when I posted this question: ‘When was the space for the GU and MU created?’ I did it somewhat on a whim; I’m new to this forum and thought I’d see who knows what on it and put out the question, this my second one.
I confess that I have not done my share of due diligence in researching and ruminating about it, but since it seems to have taken on some life, I have now poked around a bit, focusing mainly on sections in Paper 11. I also want to re-visit Sadler’s Appendix II – Paradise and the Master Universe where he talks about the bestowals of space and space potency, Appendix III – Space Levels of the Master Universe and Appendix XVI – Physical Space (and Mass) Magnitudes of the Master Universe.
We are told that time and space originate from Paradise, assuming “seemingly” has more substance than it connotes. Time, as we reckon it and as I recall, began with the flash presence of Havona.
Was the space for Havona ‘provided’ before this flash or concomitant with it? I suppose the deeper question is ‘when was space created at all?’ Then, was all of it created at the same time? Actually, that seems more likely. Then there is, of course, the question of whether space ends – it is not infinite. And, ‘is space still being created – or perhaps our questions are wrong – coming from an evolutionary finite perspective. Was/is space eventuated?
I need to review the origin of the absonite Master Architects and try and divine some time-sense about them; yes, I know ‘good luck’; they’re absonite.
Such questions as these are not to be answered by just listing a raft of quotes from the book; the answers are not so easily found. I think these kinds of questions require us to delve deeper into our understanding about the mechanics of reality and all we can really hope for are some interesting conjectures.
More to come…
Michael
Nigel,
My original hypothesis was that the space for the rest of the GU and the whole MU was “created” sometime after the “flash” creation of Havona at the beginning of time. I did recognize the absonity of the Architects of the Master Universe might put a bit of a dent in that thinking. I also considered the enormous dark gravity bodies between the central universe and the rest of the grand universe to have some relevancy.
I re-read Paper 11 (especially 7. Space Functions of Paradise) and Paper 14 then turned to Bill Sadler, Jr.’s appendices to his A STUDY OF THE MASTER UNIVERSE, especially, II, III, XVI and XXI. Here’s a cool link to all of them: https://www.urantia.org/appendices-study-master-universe/appendices-study-master-universe
Bill writes in a very casual style, sometimes seeming to overlook other possible interpretations of the material in the book, but he does cut to the chase quite nicely.
My take away from all this “due diligence” was summed up in the last line of section one in Appendix II Paradise and the Master Universe:
- 1 SPACE BESTOWAL OF PARADISE
Space certainly seems to be the most fundamental prerequisite to physical creation. We are informed all space comes from Paradise. Consider the following statements made concerning the origin and nature of space:
(120.2) 11:2.10 Paradise “has no location in space.” Neither is space on Paradise; its areas are non-spatial – absolute.
(124.5 ) 11:7.4 Paradise bestows space.
(120.3) 11:2.11 It seems to take origin just below Nether Paradise.
(1297.6) 118:3.5 Many aspects of space are absolute, but space is not actually absolute.
(135.1) 12:5.2 It is not absolute because it is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute.
(1297.6) 118:3.5 Space is not absolute, but it is nearly absolute. It is “absolutely ultimate.”
(135.1) 12:5.3 Space is not infinite, but its outer limits are not known.
(133.9) 12:4.7 Space “contains and conditions motion.”
(125.1) 11:7.7 It is conducive to motion in contrast to not-space (midspace) which is relatively resistant to motion.
What can be logically deduced from these statements? We advance the idea that there was no space in fact before the times of Havona, back in the hypothetical Zero Age. The concept of space (and of time, too, for that matter) may have existed in the Zero Age in the minds of the Architects of the Master Universe. (Appendix I § 3) We advance the thought that space appears in the “dawn of eternity” along with the appearance of the central universe. Prior to this event, it seems reasonable to believe that the regions outside of Paradise were occupied by (not-space) midspace. The emergence of space could be likened to an invasion of midspace which was caused by an action of the Paradise Isle. We suggest that this emergence of space took place at the same moment as the appearance of the central universe.
I agree with his suggestion; I think that’s right.
Michael
Hi Michael – thanks for adding all those thoughts! Here are a few more:
Regarding global arrangements, and the topology of midspace,
( 124.3, 11:7.2 ) “[…]. Geographically these zones appear to be a relative extension of Paradise, […]”
If (geographically) midspace is “a relative extension of Paradise”, and if the extent of this Paradise extension encapsulates both reservoir and pervaded space, then these two internal regions become some kind of excavation (think “womb”) within this paradisaical extent. This is a bit different to Bill Sadler’s idea. Whereas Bill wrote: “The emergence of space could be likened to an invasion of midspace…“, I’m thinking of the partitions of space as an “absolutely ultimate” qualification (see transcendental causation) of original Paradise extent.
( 1169.6, 106:7.7 ) “[…] Even space itself is but an ultimate condition, a condition of qualification within the relative absoluteness of the quiet zones of midspace.”
Regarding the cycles of “space respiration“, if the (1) pervaded and (2) reservoir spaces are embedded within midspace, then we might think of these cycles as being due to the global motions of midspace (see “space-work, not power-energy work” 134.2, 12:4.13). The apparent expansion and contraction of the (absolutely ultimate) partitions of space then become a side-effect of the global pulsing of midspace.
Regarding the “stiffness” of midspace, and the motion of space levels,
( 125.2, 11:7.8 ) “A space level thus functions as an elliptical region of motion surrounded on all sides by relative motionlessness. Such relationships of motion and quiescence constitute a curved space path of lessened resistance to motion which is universally followed by cosmic force and emergent energy as they circle forever around the Isle of Paradise.”
For current (human) observational cosmology, this is a game-changer. Whether the alternating clockwise / counter-clockwise motions associated with these nested elliptical space levels involve a transverse motion (relative to Paradise) of the content of space, or the actual motion OF these elliptical regions of space, let’s “pause to consider…” Anyone who has done some tertiary level physics will have met the idea that relativistic motion across (transverse to) our line of sight is just as effective at red-shifting the spectrum of a galaxy (google “relativistic transverse Doppler effect”) as a radial velocity away from us, ALONG our line of sight,
( 134.3, 12:4.14 ) “[…] But this apparent speed of recession is not real; […]”
“But the greatest of all such distortions… ”
( 134.4, 12:4.15 ) “But the greatest of all such distortions arises because the vast universes of outer space, in the realms next to the domains of the seven superuniverses, seem to be revolving in a direction opposite to that of the grand universe. […]”
Secondary (but more “discoverable”) contributions to redshift may be due to the differential distribution of segregata (and emergent ultimata). This should affect the electrical permittivity and magnetic permeability of different regions of space. Since “the speed of light” is defined by these parameters, any variation in their value will cause predictable changes to observed wavelength / frequency. For example, an apparent red-shifting of the spectral signatures we use for estimating distance. But as the author points out, ” the greatest of all such distortions…” will be due to that relativistic transverse Doppler effect.
Regarding gravity waves: this brings to mind the way space is said to serve as a “cushion”:
( 125.6, 11:8.3 ) “Space is nonresponsive to gravity, but it acts as an equilibrant on gravity. Without the space cushion, explosive action would jerk surrounding space bodies. […]”
And one more thing. While the central universe is eternal, and while ages within the superuniverse space level are measured in TRILLIONS of years, the spirals we study in the outer space levels may actually be quite young; say on the order of mere BILLIONS of years. Which means that we may all be surprised by the true nature and extent of Orvonton.
Which just happens to be the focus of part 4D in that video series
Nigel
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