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How are you defining genuine prayer? Are you referring to prayer with spiritual value?
7:3.3 The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. Each will occupy himself with that which belongs to his personal province. Therefore, in your practical religious experience, it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.
Or prayer addressing the superhuman level of existence?
91:0.3 When the concepts of ghosts and spirits evolved, these petitions became superhuman in address, and with the consciousness of gods, such expressions attained to the levels of genuine prayer. As an illustration of this, among certain Australian tribes primitive religious prayers antedated their belief in spirits and superhuman personalities.
Or prayer that arises out of consciousness of communion with God?
91:8.10 Genuine prayer adds to spiritual growth, modifies attitudes, and yields that satisfaction which comes from communion with divinity. It is a spontaneous outburst of God-consciousness.
I think it’s important to note that prayer has multiple levels beginning with the subconscious to the superconscious and beyond.
91:2.6 During the earlier times of racial evolution and even at the present time, in the day-by-day experience of the average mortal, prayer is very much a phenomenon of man’s intercourse with his own subconscious. But there is also a domain of prayer wherein the intellectually alert and spiritually progressing individual attains more or less contact with the superconscious levels of the human mind, the domain of the indwelling Thought Adjuster. In addition, there is a definite spiritual phase of true prayer which concerns its reception and recognition by the spiritual forces of the universe, and which is entirely distinct from all human and intellectual association.
How are you defining genuine prayer?
After posting the question, it occurred that sincere would have been a better choice. But I like your comprehensive reply. But does it have soul??
Are you referring to prayer with spiritual value?
If it involves the soul, it must, values being the substance of souls, no?
7:3.3 The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. Each will occupy himself with that which belongs to his personal province. Therefore, in your practical religious experience, it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.
Nothing about soul being prayer’s origin there.
Or prayer addressing the superhuman level of existence?
91:0.3 When the concepts of ghosts and spirits evolved, these petitions became superhuman in address, and with the consciousness of gods, such expressions attained to the levels of genuine prayer. As an illustration of this, among certain Australian tribes primitive religious prayers antedated their belief in spirits and superhuman personalities.
Nothing there.
Or prayer that arises out of consciousness of communion with God?
91:8.10 Genuine prayer adds to spiritual growth, modifies attitudes, and yields that satisfaction which comes from communion with divinity. It is a spontaneous outburst of God-consciousness.
That comes close with « spiritual growth » (gotta get some of that spontaneous outburst juice).
I think it’s important to note that prayer has multiple levels beginning with the subconscious to the superconscious and beyond.
91:2.6 During the earlier times of racial evolution and even at the present time, in the day-by-day experience of the average mortal, prayer is very much a phenomenon of man’s intercourse with his own subconscious. But there is also a domain of prayer wherein the intellectually alert and spiritually progressing individual attains more or less contact with the superconscious levels of the human mind, the domain of the indwelling Thought Adjuster. In addition, there is a definite spiritual phase of true prayer which concerns its reception and recognition by the spiritual forces of the universe, and which is entirely distinct from all human and intellectual association.
Like the « spiritual phase » idea. That’s got to be soul-full.
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Richard E Warren
But does it have soul??
It sounds like you’re asking if the dog has fleas. Does a person have soul like a person has heartburn? Asking if a prayer has soul is just like asking if the performance of a piece of music has soul. The soul is an entity, not a form of emotional energy. The soul is an entity because it has its own mind and its own character. Sorry . . . it really gets under my skin.
112:5.12 There is something real, something of human evolution, something additional to the Mystery Monitor, which survives death. This newly appearing entity is the soul, and it survives the death of both your physical body and your material mind. This entity is the conjoint child of the combined life and efforts of the human you in liaison with the divine you, the Adjuster. This child of human and divine parentage constitutes the surviving element of terrestrial origin; it is the morontia self, the immortal soul.
133:6.7 “The human soul, when matured, ennobled, and spiritualized, approaches the heavenly status in that it comes near to being an entity intervening between the material and the spiritual, the material self and the divine spirit.
111:3.2 During life the mortal will, the personality power of decision-choice, is resident in the material mind circuits; as terrestrial mortal growth proceeds, this self, with its priceless powers of choice, becomes increasingly identified with the emerging morontia-soul entity; after death and following the mansion world resurrection, the human personality is completely identified with the morontia self. The soul is thus the embryo of the future morontia vehicle of personality identity.
Prayer, any kind of prayer, induces the ego to look both ways for help, to both worldly wisdom and divine wisdom. Prayer is an act of the personality attempting to communicate with the sense of « otherness » within its own consciousness, ranging from subconscious to superconscious levels.
91:3.5 Prayer induces the human ego to look both ways for help: for material aid to the subconscious reservoir of mortal experience, for inspiration and guidance to the superconscious borders of the contact of the material with the spiritual, with the Mystery Monitor.
If you want to « pray with soul » like Aretha Franklin « sings with soul », then what you’re looking for is what Jesus described as praying in the spirit. To pray in the spirit means engaging the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the mind of the soul, and also a person. And more importantly, she comes as a package deal with the Spirit of Truth, the true vine, the guaranteed connection to the Adjuster.
146:2.10 9. “I have come forth from the Father; if, therefore, you are ever in doubt as to what you would ask of the Father, ask in my name, and I will present your petition in accordance with your real needs and desires and in accordance with my Father’s will.” Guard against the great danger of becoming self-centered in your prayers. Avoid praying much for yourself; pray more for the spiritual progress of your brethren. Avoid materialistic praying; pray in the spirit and for the abundance of the gifts of the spirit.
168:4.9 Material beings can pray effectively only when they “pray in the spirit.”
Praying in the spirit is a wholehearted reach of faith for communication with the divine spirit in the soul, a person, the otherness you sense is there, your divine alter ego.
146:2.14 Jesus never taught that human knowledge and special skill could be gained by prayer. But he did teach that prayer is a factor in the enlargement of one’s capacity to receive the presence of the divine spirit. When Jesus taught his associates to pray in the spirit and in truth, he explained that he referred to praying sincerely and in accordance with one’s enlightenment, to praying wholeheartedly and intelligently, earnestly and steadfastly.
Praying in the spirit is that vine thing Jesus talked about.
180:2.1 Remember: I am the real vine, and you are the living branches. He who lives in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit of the spirit and experience the supreme joy of yielding this spiritual harvest. If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition.
You might find insight on prayer in this, one of my favortie paragraphs about Jesus.
Jesus brought to God, as a man of the realm, the greatest of all offerings: the consecration and dedication of his own will to the majestic service of doing the divine will. Jesus always and consistently interpreted religion wholly in terms of the Father’s will. When you study the career of the Master, as concerns prayer or any other feature of the religious life, look not so much for what he taught as for what he did. Jesus never prayed as a religious duty. To him prayer was a sincere expression of spiritual attitude, a declaration of soul loyalty, a recital of personal devotion, an expression of thanksgiving, an avoidance of emotional tension, a prevention of conflict, an exaltation of intellection, an ennoblement of desire, a vindication of moral decision, an enrichment of thought, an invigoration of higher inclinations, a consecration of impulse, a clarification of viewpoint, a declaration of faith, a transcendental surrender of will, a sublime assertion of confidence, a revelation of courage, the proclamation of discovery, a confession of supreme devotion, the validation of consecration, a technique for the adjustment of difficulties, and the mighty mobilization of the combined soul powers to withstand all human tendencies toward selfishness, evil, and sin. He lived just such a life of prayerful consecration to the doing of his Father’s willand ended his life triumphantly with just such a prayer. The secret of his unparalleled religious life was this consciousness of the presence of God; and he attained it by intelligent prayer and sincere worship — unbroken communion with God — and not by leadings, voices, visions, or extraordinary religious practices..
Thanks very much, Bonita, Mara. Appreciate your inputs. Very enlightening re prayer.
Just one more question to pin down what’s at the core of the original question in the thread:
Do you think, according to the UB authors, that sincere prayer can originate in the soul?
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Richard E Warren
prayer can originate in the soul
yes. Jesus prayed in his morontia form.
192:3.2 At this time the eleven apostles knelt in a circle about the Master and heard him repeat the charges and saw him re-enact the ordination scene even as when they were first set apart for the special work of the kingdom. And all of this was to them as a memory of their former consecration to the Father’s service, except the Master’s prayer. When the Master — the morontia Jesus — now prayed, it was in tones of majesty and with words of power such as the apostles had never before heard. Their Master now spoke with the rulers of the universes as one who, in his own universe, had had all power and authority committed to his hand. And these eleven men never forgot this experience of the morontia rededication to the former pledges of ambassadorship. The Master spent just one hour on this mount with his ambassadors, and when he had taken an affectionate farewell of them, he vanished from their sight.
To me prayer is a continuum in the sense that it is ongoing and of varying depth in my experience. I am aware of a profound depth somewhere inside. It wells up in me. To me this seems like my soul. I feelingly experience it, though I do not try to analyze it. Good questions Rick.
prayer can originate in the soul
yes. Jesus prayed in his morontia form.
192:3.2 At this time the eleven apostles knelt in a circle about the Master and heard him repeat the charges and saw him re-enact the ordination scene even as when they were first set apart for the special work of the kingdom. And all of this was to them as a memory of their former consecration to the Father’s service, except the Master’s prayer. When the Master — the morontia Jesus — now prayed, it was in tones of majesty and with words of power such as the apostles had never before heard. Their Master now spoke with the rulers of the universes as one who, in his own universe, had had all power and authority committed to his hand. And these eleven men never forgot this experience of the morontia rededication to the former pledges of ambassadorship. The Master spent just one hour on this mount with his ambassadors, and when he had taken an affectionate farewell of them, he vanished from their sight.
To me prayer is a continuum in the sense that it is ongoing and of varying depth in my experience. I am aware of a profound depth somewhere inside. It wells up in me. To me this seems like my soul. I feelingly experience it, though I do not try to analyze it. Good questions Rick.
And an equally good answer. Thanks Mara.
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Richard E Warren
Do you think, according to the UB authors, that sincere prayer can originate in the soul?
I’m still trying to understand what you mean. Sincere prayer originates in the mind. The mind has multiple levels of consciousness. The simple prayer of thanksgiving is sincere and yet it can originate in the material intellect or it can be inspired by the loving relationship experienced in the soul. Sincere prayer can arise from any part of the conscious mind.
Critical to understanding the concept of anything to do with the soul is the fact that it is a personal relationship. It takes two persons to make a relationship. To experience something that originates in the soul one also experiences the reality of partnership, companionship, friendship, fellowship, communion with the other self who lives in your head. Praying WITH this person, is praying IN the spirit and the spirit lives in the soul. But it begins with prayer in the material mind which is supposed to open the human end of the conversation; it’s dialing God’s number knowing he will pick up and listen. Faith in this reality is critical. A true Father always take his son’s call.
But you ask about the prayer originating in the soul as opposed to the lower mind. Any prayer originating in the soul already recognizes the connection, or relationship with God. It’s a co-joint effort, one which is experienced as a partnership with God. Those prayers are always answered, some immediately, some in time and sometimes the answer is not what you expect at all. Actually, it’s good not to have any expectations as to outcome if you want to pray « in the spirit ». Praying « in the spirit » is simply sharing the inner life with God, which is the same as doing God’s will. And that’s why the prayers are answered.
146:2.4 By opening the human end of the channel of the God-man communication, mortals make immediately available the ever-flowing stream of divine ministry to the creatures of the worlds. When man hears God’s spirit speak within the human heart, inherent in such an experience is the fact that God simultaneously hears that man’s prayer.
I’m wondering if what you’re actually interested in is worship. There’s a beautiful continuum between prayer and worship because prayer expands insight into the soul which is the initiator of worship.
143:7.4 Prayer is designed to make man less thinking but more realizing; it is not designed to increase knowledge but rather to expand insight.
91:4.3 When the prayer seeks nothing for the one who prays nor anything for his fellows, then such attitudes of the soul tend to the levels of true worship.
5:3.8 Worship is, therefore, the act of the material mind’s assenting to the attempt of its spiritualizing self, under the guidance of the associated spirit, to communicate with God as a faith son of the Universal Father. The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul.
Just wish to thank everyone here who has demonstrated that prayer which is genuine, sincere, and effective describes a broad spectrum of very personalized practices.
Children and primitives, without soul may still experience genuine, sincere, and effective prayer. For many prayer is simply a bridge or ladder to communion and the sharing of being that results in the very real assurances of faith and truth.
I think that prayer which is most effective leads to a familiarity with Spirit and a comfort and confidence in the Spirit within. The me becomes we. We join this conspiracy of the Spirit willingly to seek our path forward and to discover reality and discern truth and find assurance.
Such a prayerful attitude of trust and confidence in the Spirit becomes a relationship that is far more real than the simple and primitive petition for favor. The more we pray and the more sincere and faithful our prayer, the more this bridge will lead to communion and relationship and progress in the Spirit.
Therefore it would be unwise to categorize or judge what form prayer takes. All prayer opens doors and makes connections which offer opportunities and permissions for the Spirit to connect and act and minister to both mortal mind and to soul…both.
Thanks everyone.
I think it should be remembered that prayer is a response. Contact with the Spirit does not originate with the mortal. The Spirit creates urges, yearns, hungers, and thirsts which crave relief and resolution.
These first occur long before the birth of soul and continue long afterwards. Which is not to say that mortals do not initiate prayer, communion, and worship…certainly we do so. But we do not initiate contact.
Consider our answering or picking up a ringing phone. God created the phone and the phone line or tower or satelite and God dialed our number and made the phone ring…the first time and many times we but answered the phone. Then do we, if we do, initiate the call. But the system is God’s and God does call us constantly. God never abandons nor forsakes that connection.
1:4.2 (26.4) The physical bodies of mortals are “the temples of God.” Notwithstanding that the Sovereign Creator Sons come near the creatures of their inhabited worlds and “draw all men to themselves”; though they “stand at the door” of consciousness “and knock” and delight to come in to all who will “open the doors of their hearts”; although there does exist this intimate personal communion between the Creator Sons and their mortal creatures, nevertheless, mortal men have something from God himself which actually dwells within them; their bodies are the temples thereof.
166:3.7 (1829.4) Slowly the apostles and many of the disciples were learning the meaning of Jesus’ early declaration: “Unless you are born again, born of the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Nevertheless, to all who are honest of heart and sincere in faith, it remains eternally true: “Behold, I stand at the doors of men’s hearts and knock, and if any man will open to me, I will come in and sup with him and will feed him with the bread of life; we shall be one in spirit and purpose, and so shall we ever be brethren in the long and fruitful service of the search for the Paradise Father.” And so, whether few or many are to be saved altogether depends on whether few or many will heed the invitation: “I am the door, I am the new and living way, and whosoever wills may enter to embark upon the endless truth-search for eternal life.”
113:4.4 (1245.4) The impulse of worship largely originates in the spirit promptings of the higher mind adjutants, reinforced by the leadings of the Adjuster. But the urge to pray so often experienced by God-conscious mortals very often arises as the result of seraphic influence. The guarding seraphim is constantly manipulating the mortal environment for the purpose of augmenting the cosmic insight of the human ascender to the end that such a survival candidate may acquire enhanced realization of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster and thus be enabled to yield increased co-operation with the spiritual mission of the divine presence.
113:4.5 (1245.5) While there is apparently no communication between the indwelling Adjusters and the encompassing seraphim, they always seem to work in perfect harmony and exquisite accord. The guardians are most active at those times when the Adjusters are least active, but their ministry is in some manner strangely correlated. Such superb co-operation could hardly be either accidental or incidental.
113:4.6 (1245.6) The ministering personality of the guardian seraphim, the God presence of the indwelling Adjuster, the encircuited action of the Holy Spirit, and the Son-consciousness of the Spirit of Truth are all divinely correlated into a meaningful unity of spiritual ministry in and to a mortal personality. Though hailing from different sources and different levels, these celestial influences are all integrated in the enveloping and evolving presence of the Supreme Being.
ALLELUIA
I’am soooo happy to see wiser, fruitful and freewill determination to do the right course of action. The just faithfull moves.
It take « balls » to do so. From texture of paper, then wood and iron. We are all getting there. Soon will be morantia’s fabric and infaillibly spiritual’s character.
What you have commited yourself to do can’t be likened with contemporary rhet-comp logic. It is way higher and impregnable domains.
Compliments Bro,
André
The impulse, or instinct, for prayer can be attributed to the two higher adjutants, worship and wisdom, but the pressure to pray most often comes from our angels. It is the angels who wield the hammer of human suffering used to forge noble characters, and our Adjusters are the source of our divine character. The goal of urging prayer is to enhance consciousness of the Adjuster in the soul, or rather to increase spiritual capacity.
113:4.4 The impulse of worship largely originates in the spirit promptings of the higher mind adjutants, reinforced by the leadings of the Adjuster. But the urge to pray so often experienced by God-conscious mortals very often arises as the result of seraphic influence. The guarding seraphim is constantly manipulating the mortal environment for the purpose of augmenting the cosmic insight of the human ascender to the end that such a survival candidate may acquire enhanced realization of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster and thus be enabled to yield increased co-operation with the spiritual mission of the divine presence.
9:1.8 The universe of your origin is being forged out between the anvil of justice and the hammer of suffering; but those who wield the hammer are the children of mercy, the spirit offspring of the Infinite Spirit.
144:4.2 The earnest and longing repetition of any petition, when such a prayer is the sincere expression of a child of God and is uttered in faith, no matter how ill-advised or impossible of direct answer, never fails to expand the soul’s capacity for spiritual receptivity.
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