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My dear friends and fellow readers,
I am interested in your thoughts about the following passage which has for a long time puzzled and intrigued me:
Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming “the kingdom of God is at hand”–meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer–and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ. P.1866:2
I have often wondered whether this is referring to an individual human who, like John the Baptist, would presage the coming of the kingdom, or in it’s anti-typical sense, a “return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus”…..or does it refer to a composite class of humans doing this work collectively?
Your thoughts and opinions on this would be much appreciated!
Love to all!
Julian
I have wondered about this statement also. If we consider the Jewish spiritual-secular, civil and cultural foundation, we can see what he taught attracted a lot of emotion led attention. He was “wired” from his start because of religious expectations. His ability to attract attention made him effective, but another and greater John the Baptist will have media, communications advantages and the world may likely become very tired of war. This new John may have a profound message the world would be ready to hear. It is possible a dynamic speaker at such a time will attract attention, perhaps diluting sufficiently the many material distractions, which would result in willing, listening people.
I assume a new “John” would have an audience ready to search for something—perhaps a new spiritual age. Now, the greater audience is distracted by material self-gratification and political power positioning. Maybe such a person would be useful in helping a new world order emerge resulting in one world government, for world size authority over planetary issues—-choosing peace instead of bombs. The Jews were pumped over time and ready for his message. What is needed to “pump” us?
Notice that John affirmed Jesus as the “One”, so therefore the authors could be saying the new John will affirm this Jesus again for His teachings and high human modeling. I don’t read into this passage as confirming a group, which, as we can see from human nature, could become political doing ecclesiastical work.
There is also the revelators’ projection for a great musician to appear on Urantia. Recall? Perhaps these two events would be peer ministry events the likes of which we’ve never seen. I think these two comments indicate a hint for needed growth; we are to have our antennas up, alert and trend monitoring. What human authority(-ies) would prevail?
Food for thought. Thank you for the topic.
Hello everyone, things have been changing within me of late, and having thought I’d not return to the forums, here I am. I have been reading them over the past months and was captured by this post of Julian’s and want to share my thoughts and opinions. And of course I want to hear your replies.
I too wondered what was the book hinting at in this paragraph, and it’s interesting because the only other spirit-induced material I look at (other than my own) is the Padgett Messages, which no doubt some of you have heard about, and which also contains one brief, as in passing, reference to a future ‘Revealer’. So here we have the only two decent and relatively recent (the PM’s being received by James Padgett early last century) communications from higher spirits both saying that humanity is to expect a ‘Revealer’ and ‘another and greater John the Baptist’. And I wondered, if, as so many people believe, Jesus said it all, and more than enough for us to follow him and heal ourselves of all our problems, then why would be need another person to come and reveal anything more to us – for, what could there possibly be to reveal? And so with the smatterings of truth in the Bible, with all TUB says, and then with Jesus himself coming with the help of Celestial spirits telling us what was left out of the Bible, filling in the gaps about how important the Divine Love is and other interesting things in the Padgett Messages, he even saying in them that they are his Second Coming, with all of that to help us, what more could this Revealer person possibly reveal – and why would we need it?
So if one does accept this ‘special’ person is to come, and possibly even soon to come, then one surely has to accept that possibly all we need to help us ascend to Paradise has NOT actually yet been revealed, and that there is possibly another instalment awaiting us; and that possibly if so, then that instalment is very important; and even further: that without it, we actually CAN’T fully embrace our ascension as so many people believe they are doing. Because, not to labour the point, if we could from all the resources available to us, then why the need for this revealer and greater John the Baptist person?
And if you accept this train of thought, then you start going down a tunnel into what might turn into the Pandora’s Box of annoying problems that most people refuse to face. However, I like facing these challenges and so want to push on and see what you reckon about such things.
So let’s now think about this Revealer, what sort of person might he be as Julian, and I guess others, would like to know? And what I think he will be is an Avonal Son – no surprise there, however one on a full bestowal. And I know what TUB says about this, however it also says, by nicely leaving the door open, that Jesus has the say as to what happens on our world, so anything can happen. So why do I think we should be expecting and Avonal bestowal? And I will explain, however it will no doubt confront a lot of your beliefs and feelings about TUB, but still I’d like to see what you think about it. And as there is a lot to it, I will leave it here for my first return post, adding more later.
Affectionately – Zuimon.
Zuimon wrote: . . . why the need for this revealer and greater John the Baptist person?John the Baptist was not a revealer. John the Baptists was a cult leader and torch bearer. John was not a divine person. John was purely human in every way. The new Baptist will be of the same ilk, a human being leading human beings into the kingdom of God by reviving Jesus’ teaching in a charismatic way much like the old Baptist revived Old Testament teachings. What will make the new Baptist greater than the old Baptist is the message. The old Baptist had the teaching of the pre-Jesus prophets as his inspiration. The new Baptist has Jesus’ actual teaching, a much greater torch to pass. We don’t need a new revealer, we need a potent torch bearer who will inspire us to seriously, sincerely and honestly try out Jesus’ teachings! As TUB points out: This world has never seriously or sincerely or honestly tried out these dynamic ideas and divine ideals of Jesus’ doctrine of the kingdom of heaven. (170:4.14)
170:5.19 Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming “the kingdom of God is at hand” — meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer — and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ. There must come a revival of the actual teachings of Jesus, such a restatement as will undo the work of his early followers who went about to create a sociophilosophical system of belief regarding the fact of Michael’s sojourn on earth. In a short time the teaching of this story about Jesus nearly supplanted the preaching of Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom. In this way a historical religion displaced that teaching in which Jesus had blended man’s highest moral ideas and spiritual ideals with man’s most sublime hope for the future — eternal life. And that was the gospel of the kingdom.
Like you Bonita, I have thought that it is possibly an ordinary mortal like John that might be able to do as you say, however now I don’t think that is possible because there is not all the information readily available yet for such a person to bring about the revival of the actual teachings of Jesus, hence the need for someone else to reveal that missing information. Possibly once all the truth is available, then might come such a mortal who can ignite the imagination and hearts of people to truly long for the truth and follow Jesus by first healing themselves of their rebellion and default, but until all that information is available, I see there can only be more of the same old, same old. And I’m sorry, but I don’t think TUB is the key. I don’t think TUB reveals or presents all Jesus said and all he is for someone to use to make such a revival, and I also don’t think it’s TUB’s job to do that.
For me TUB and the Padgett Messages are to be united, not withstanding their various discrepancies. They both contain vital information for us. And it’s intriguing that the PM preceded TUB and yet TUB makes no mention of them, when the PM are the truest expression of Jesus’ Spirit of Truth that we have on the earth; TUB isn’t, TUB is just a lot of mind information pooled together for us to use in conjunction with the PM, and then with what this future revealer is to reveal. So I don’t see TUB as being the be-all and end-all, it’s just one piece of the puzzle we’ve been presented with at this time in our evolution.
And if you are truly wanting to follow Jesus, and can’t stomach the PM, then you are not embracing his Spirit of Truth irrespective of what you believe. If you reject the Jesus that spoke to James Padgett in the PM, then you are rejecting Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, choosing to relate to a false or fantasy Jesus you’ve made up in your own mind, just like the Christians do. The PM are the benchmark so to speak, the starting point, from which we are then to work with and integrate TUB, all of which then sets us up ready to receive that which the Revealer has to say, that being the missing link, or missing part of the puzzle. And if you believe you have all you need, then so far as I’m concerned (and yes, I might be wrong) you are sadly deluding yourself and doing yourself a severe disservice. If you are sincerely wanting to embrace Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, then you will need to begin with the Padgett Messages, but not limit yourself to them, as too many people are inclined to do. And likewise, if you are only adhering to TUB, then you will severely restrict your growth to merely advancing your mind and limiting your soul development.
So why a full Avonal bestowal?
Jesus came retaining his perfection, and this is very important to remember. He didn’t submit to the Rebellion and Default by taking it on, by becoming it, he lived within it, but never experienced it personally first hand. He doesn’t know from personal experience what it feels like to feel utterly unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone and devoid of any comfort from truth. He doesn’t know what it feels like to live denying yourself, nature, him and the Father. He doesn’t know what it feels like to wake up realising you are false, untrue and full of your own self-importance, devoid of any humility. And he couldn’t know, he couldn’t go that way, because had he become of the Rebellion and Default, being the Creator Son he’d have brought the whole of Nebadon into rebellion, which I’m sure he didn’t want to do. And this too is very important to remember because we are a long way from Jesus, there is a vast gulf between his perfection and our imperfection. And a such a gulf that a few words in a book can’t bridge.
And so you’d then naturally think, yes, but he has liberated his Spirit of Truth and we can use that to heal ourselves of our wrongness – but can we? Bonita said as much recently in a post, but I beg to differ as much as I’d like it to be true. The Spirit of Truth, just like in the PM and the partaking of the Divine Love, is simply not enough to remove your sins and errors. We have to do our Healing. And you see Bonita, it’s because Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, DOES NOT contain within it the necessary help we need to actually heal ourselves of our rebellion and default, because Jesus DIDN’T TAKE ON THE REBELLION AND DEFAULT, he didn’t personally become evil and sinful and untrue; and so because he didn’t become those bad things, so he didn’t need to heal himself of them; and because he didn’t heal himself of such wrongness, HOW TO HEAL THEM IS NOT CONTAINED WITHIN HIS SPIRIT OF TRUTH. (I’m capitalising because this is fundamental to understand, and it’s not said in either TUB or the PM.)
So, contrary to what many people believe and think is happening to them, we can’t use Jesus’ Spirit of Truth to heal ourselves of our rebellion and default, because the truth of how to do it is not contained within it, so it doesn’t connect with us where we really need it to. It can connect with us to a limited degree, as people do feel Jesus is the One, and want to be as He is – perfect; and we want to follow him and ascend through Nebadon to Paradise, but still that’s all very well, but HE CAN’T ACTUALLY HELP US WITH OUR HEALING. And so much so, that it’s not even his place or right to help us. And going even further: he doesn’t actually want to help us in a hands on way, because if he did then he’d be interfering with our rebellion and default, and he like the Father doesn’t interfere. He had every chance to interfere all he liked when he was on earth, but he didn’t, he didn’t even want to heal anyone, and he sure didn’t stop the rotten world and bring down all the very bad power-people, he didn’t even prevent himself being nailed to the cross! He simply terminated the Rebellion on the spirit level, and left us to it. And that was all he could do because he wasn’t like us, he didn’t take on the rottenness losing himself to the Evil Ones, and this a lot of people find very had to understand. So as much as we love Jesus and we want nothing more than for Jesus to help us and save us and get us out of the yuk state we’re in, really he is powerless to do it; or rather, chooses to remain that way because he does have all power. So why does he; Why doesn’t he or the Father end the horror, god it’s been going for eons now, and even with Jesus’ coming it didn’t end – SO WHY NOT? And why did they even allow us to make it even worse for ourselves by creating something as disgusting and abhorrent as the Christian religion. Why don’t they help us? Why, if Jesus’ Spirit of Truth is so readily available and contains the truth to fully heal ourselves, haven’t many people, who like Christians purport to love Jesus so much and want to do God’s will, healed themselves? Why do they still stay fully entrenched within such soul-destroying systems of belief about a fantasy Jesus, when Jesus himself, and so too his Spirit of Truth, was/is completely against the creation of such a monster. He despised and rejected the very controlling Jewish way of believing during his time on earth, telling us to instead go directly to God and that there is no need for a middleman or any such restricting, controlling, life-dominating church, and yet so many people bind themselves up in it even to die for such erroneous beliefs – so where is the Spirit of Truth for all these self-professed Jesus lovers? He said as TUB says in this quote that the kingdom of Heaven is in your heart, it’s where your truth is, it is not out there in some horrible religious institution – so where is Jesus’ helping Spirit of Truth in the lives of these people? Surely many more people who do genuinely want to be true, follow him and embrace his Spirit of Truth, would end up running a mile from the Church, and the Church wouldn’t have the power it currently has if his Spirit of Truth was all we needed.
So again I am saying that Jesus’ Spirit of Truth can’t actually reach us to the degree we need from it so as to fully heal ourselves of our rebellion and truth, and so we need another Spirit of Truth to help us do the job – hence the need for an Avonal bestowal. For do you see, that Avonal would be able to fully submit to the Rebellion and Default, taking it all on, losing himself to it by becoming untrue by being conceived into it, becoming fully sinful and evil – imperfect, just like we all are; and then at some point in his life realise that how he was living wasn’t actually making him feel very good, and so would seek the truth of his negative, unloving, anti-truth, rebellious state of mind and will, and set about healing himself of all his wrongness. And then once fully healed, upon his death would liberate his Spirit to Truth to work in conjunction with, or ‘just under’, Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, containing within it ALL the truth we need to help us fully heal ourselves, all because of the personal life experience of that Avonal. And that the Avonal would then bridge the vast gulf separating us and Jesus. He literally being ‘the way to Jesus’, and if we ‘followed him’, he’d then lead us to Jesus, just as all the other bestowal Avonals do on all the other worlds. Remembering that the Avonals are created to deal with specific worlds, and in particular worlds that have gone into rebellion, and not the whole local universe like Jesus does. The Avonal is able to go into the heart of any rebellion and default by becoming of them, and wake up to see the untruth of it all, then heal himself of it, thereby providing the way for humanity to heal themselves of their rebellion and any other problems like a default. The Avonals can ‘lose’ themselves and become imperfect and it’s not going to affect the whole of Nebadon. Jesus terminated the Rebellion in Nebadon by dealing with the major spirit Evil Ones, that was his domain and area of jurisdiction, expertise and right; whereas it’s for an Avonal to effectively terminate the Rebellion, and more importantly in our case, the Default, on earth, all being done in the physical through his personal healing of it within himself, all so we don’t have to wait until we die before we can fully do our healing as many of the spirits in the Padgett Messages have done.
So, does that make any sense?
Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming “the kingdom of God is at hand”–meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer–and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ. P.1866:2
So the “another and greater John the Baptist” would be the bestowal Avonal Son. He would effectively be heralding Jesus anew; and by revealing the truth of how we can actually fully heal our rebellion and default, would ‘prepare’ us for Jesus’ Spirit of Truth. So effectively he’d be the forerunner to Jesus. And by revealing the truth of how to heal our evilness, he’d be effectively showing us how we can “return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer”, and would do this “without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth” or in the mind mansion worlds where the Christian faiths are all alive and kicking. And he wouldn’t concern himself with the Churches or any other religion or spiritual system of belief because he’d understand that they are all still outworking the Rebellion and Default, that everyone within them is to be allowed to remain as they choose, for like Jesus and the Father he’s not going to interfere with or disturb them. He will simply deal only with those people who are sincere truth seekers and who want to do all they can to completely heal themselves of their untrue and false lives.
And he also won’t refer to in any way “the anticipated second coming of Christ” as the Christians want to believe, because he’d know this was nonsense as Jesus is seemingly not going to come down out of the clouds vanquishing all enemies whilst gathering up the chosen flock and whisking them off to the Promised Land. That ain’t on, that’s all part of the fantasy worship of a false Jesus, particularly as Jesus himself said in the Padgett Messages that those messages to James Padgett were, and so are, his Second Coming. I think that if Jesus is going to ever come again in person to earth, then he will come way in the future and through the Morontia Temple whilst on one of his regular world visits. Because by them humanity will have completely healed itself of the Rebellion and Default and so will be on a level of perfection and so truth so as to be able to readily relate to him and his perfection. I think that if Jesus were to suddenly appear today the very people who are saying he is coming would deny them, would disbelieve it actually is him (just how the Jews denied him), as he’d be anti the Church and anti what most Christians are all about – he wouldn’t ‘talk the talk’ or ‘walk the walk’ and they’d very quickly probably label him the Antichrist or Satan incarnate especially if he performed a few miracles. And I can’t imagine the Avonal getting tied up in all of that – that being if he is due to come now anyway. And is it time for the Avonal bestowal…? I think it is; I think we’re moving through the end of Jesus’ age, and because of the bestowal of the Avonal, will then move into the first of Urantia’s Spiritual Ages, hence the prophesied 1000 years of peace. This being the first leg of humanity’s true healing journey, for people will finally have available the truth of how to fully heal themselves, which up until now has not existed in the world.
So for me this quote in TUB is very specific; and why mention these two aspects about what he will not be interested in? And then combined with the PM telling us about the Revealer that is to come, it all looks to what might possibly be a very an enlightening time. That is for those people who do sincerely want to end their rebellious ways.
….. And if you are truly wanting to follow Jesus, and can’t stomach the PM, then you are not embracing his Spirit of Truth irrespective of what you believe. If you reject the Jesus that spoke to James Padgett in the PM, then you are rejecting Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, choosing to relate to a false or fantasy Jesus you’ve made up in your own mind, just like the Christians do. ……
That’s quite a claim you’ve made there, uh, Zuimon. I have never heard of the PM, much less read them, much LESS believe in such (as Bonita often says, “poppycock”) so I guess I am doomed to eternal non-existence. What a shame.
Zuimon wrote:I don’t think that is possible because there is not all the information readily available yet for such a person to bring about the revival of the actual teachings of Jesus, hence the need for someone else to reveal that missing information.There is no missing information. The United Midwayers of Urantia supplied all the missing information in TUB. Then of course, we have the Spirit of Truth to guide us in all truth, which is what Jesus’ teachings are . . . truth.
Zuimon wrote: Possibly once all the truth is available, then might come such a mortal who can ignite the imagination and hearts of people . .All truth will never be revealed. Truth is relative, it is alive. Truth grows and it will never stop growing. There is no need to wait for anything. All that we need we already have. It’s a matter of choosing to utilize the gifts we have.
Zuimon wrote: . . . by first healing themselves of their rebellion and defaultThat would suggest a belief in original sin and atonement, which is a myth.Zuimon wrote: And it’s intriguing that the PM preceded TUB and yet TUB makes no mention of them, when the PM are the truest expression of Jesus’ Spirit of Truth that we have on the earth; TUB isn’t, TUB is just a lot of mind information pooled together for us to use in conjunction with the PM, and then with what this future revealer is to reveal.James Padgett was a self-deceived channeler. He once channeled John the Baptist who supposedly told Padgett: . . . you will be a most powerful and succesful advocate of the Master and a true portrayer of the divine plans of the Father. But that never happened. Padgett never became powerful or successful. I’ve read all the messages and found nothing worthwhile for me there. The reason they’re not mentioned in TUB is because they are fake, the by-product of mental mischief. TUB only includes what’s real. TUB also states that it is not possible to communicate with the dead, which is what Padgett did.
Zuimon wrote:If you reject the Jesus that spoke to James Padgett in the PM, then you are rejecting Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, choosing to relate to a false or fantasy Jesus you’ve made up in your own mind, just like the Christians do. The PM are the benchmark so to speak, the starting point, from which we are then to work with and integrate TUB, all of which then sets us up ready to receive that which the Revealer has to say, that being the missing link, or missing part of the puzzleThe Jesus who spoke to Padgett was a figment of Padgett’s subconscious mind. It’s called channeling. Perhaps you have not read the forum’s policy on channeling? Here it is:Urantia Association, as an organization, does not sanction channeling activities at Association sponsored functions, seminars, conferences or internet discussion groups. We believe that The Urantia Book‘s teachings should be unencumbered by public alliance with either New Age beliefs or traditional religions.Zuimon wrote:If you are sincerely wanting to embrace Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, then you will need to begin with the Padgett Messages . . .Although I cannot find a forum rule that prohibits proselytizing, I think there should be one. Of course you believe in the New Birth religion/church and you have every right to do that. But I don’t think you have a right to come to a Urantia Book study forum and evangelize with the purpose of converting people to your religion. It’s morally wrong.Zuimon wrote:And you see Bonita, it’s because Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, DOES NOT contain within it the necessary help we need to actually heal ourselves of our rebellion and default, because Jesus DIDN’T TAKE ON THE REBELLION AND DEFAULT, he didn’t personally become evil and sinful and untrue; and so because he didn’t become those bad things, so he didn’t need to heal himself of them; and because he didn’t heal himself of such wrongness, HOW TO HEAL THEM IS NOT CONTAINED WITHIN HIS SPIRIT OF TRUTH. (I’m capitalising because this is fundamental to understand, and it’s not said in either TUB or the PM.)Okay, where do I begin? Jesus was fully human and fully divine. He partook of every human experience possible except sin. Sin is the conscious rebellion against God’s will. Those who sin are being disloyal to God. Disloyalty is rebellion. Jesus, of course, was never disloyal. However, his message was one of forgiveness. His favorite parable was the Prodigal Son where the father forgave the son. He called himself the Good Shepherd, who would go to any length to bring a lost sheep back into the fold. The Spirit of Truth is the same person as the Good Shepherd. He’s also known as the Comforter, the Paraclete. What would the Spirit of Truth be comforting if it were not the sorrow that comes from living a life faced with potential for rebellion and default? Why would the Spirit of Truth need to be the Good Shepherd if there was no lost soul to be brought back into a loyal relationship with the Father, just like the prodigal son? The Spirit of Truth is also called the Way. The Way to what? The Way to the Father, and no man goes to the Father except through him, the Spirit of Truth within the soul. And yes, the Spirit of Truth does heal, but it requires that one consciously relate to him within the soul. Doing so is a “tonic for health, a stimulus for mind, and an unfailing energy for the soul.” It would be really useful if you actually read TUB.
169:6.2 The fact that souls are lost only increases the interest of the heavenly Father. I have come to this world to do my Father’s bidding, and it has truly been said of the Son of Man that he is a friend of publicans and sinners.180:3.7 When Jesus heard Thomas, he answered: “Thomas, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man goes to the Father except through me. All who find the Father, first find me. If you know me, you know the way to the Father. And you do know me, for you have lived with me and you now see me.”194:3.19 The coming of the Spirit of Truth purifies the human heart and leads the recipient to formulate a life purpose single to the will of God and the welfare of men. The material spirit of selfishness has been swallowed up in this new spiritual bestowal of selflessness. Pentecost, then and now, signifies that the Jesus of history has become the divine Son of living experience. The joy of this outpoured spirit, when it is consciously experienced in human life, is a tonic for health, a stimulus for mind, and an unfailing energy for the soul.Zuimon wrote:So as much as we love Jesus and we want nothing more than for Jesus to help us and save us and get us out of the yuk state we’re in, really he is powerless to do it . . .You might be in a yuk state, but I’m not. I’m quite happy with my life and most of the people I know are also happy. I’ve embraced the Spirit of Truth as a PERSON and that leads to happiness because it is an embrace of TRUTH. Only LIVING truth can make you happy, and LIVING truth is a person. If you keep calling the Spirit of Truth an “IT” I can see where you would have trouble getting out of your yuk state. Your yuk state is due to the fact that you keep erring. Error brings disappointment, sorrow and yuk because it is not real, it is not LIVING TRUTH.
2:7.6 Intellectual self-consciousness can discover the beauty of truth, its spiritual quality, not only by the philosophic consistency of its concepts, but more certainly and surely by the unerring response of the ever-present Spirit of Truth. Happiness ensues from the recognition of truth because it can be acted out; it can be lived. Disappointment and sorrow attend upon error because, not being a reality, it cannot be realized in experience. Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.Why doesn’t he or the Father end the horror, god it’s been going for eons now, and even with Jesus’ coming it didn’t end – SO WHY NOT?
Because we are supposed to do it ourselves. That is the purpose of free will. We have to choose to love God and want to be like him. Of course the process of learning to be like God will fall short of perfection. That is the process of growth. We are supposed to make daily choices that bring us closer and closer to perfection, and we do that by allowing the Spirit of Truth, who lives in our souls, to guide us into living truth (the Way). There is nothing wrong with making mistakes along the way. It’s the process of choosing that is so important. Every time we choose in such a way that brings us closer to God and his divine perfection, we are given more insight into how to grow along that path. Insight into reality grows with every single choice, so it would be useless to us if God took away all of our choices and magically cured everyone and fixed everything so we could live in a paradise. Magic, like channeling, is fake – unreal.
156:5.8 Do not become discouraged by the discovery that you are human. Human nature may tend toward evil, but it is not inherently sinful. Be not downcast by your failure wholly to forget some of your regrettable experiences. The mistakes which you fail to forget in time will be forgotten in eternity. Lighten your burdens of soul by speedily acquiring a long-distance view of your destiny, a universe expansion of your career.111:3.1 The mistakes of mortal mind and the errors of human conduct may markedly delay the evolution of the soul, although they cannot inhibit such a morontia phenomenon when once it has been initiated by the indwelling Adjuster with the consent of the creature will.Zuimon wrote: Why do they still stay fully entrenched within such soul-destroying systems of belief about a fantasy Jesus, when Jesus himself, and so too his Spirit of Truth, was/is completely against the creation of such a monster.I doubt that is true. I’m sure Jesus and his Spirit of Truth embrace all that is good within organized religion. There is some value (truth) in all organized religions, including the Christian Church. We are told that that Christianity is the best religion of the twentieth century and must not be despised, which you clearly do. The Christian religion is immortal; it contains enough of Jesus’ teachings to keep the LIVING TRUTH alive forever. So get over it Zuimon. Christianity, in some form or another, is here to stay.
195:9.8 Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand.195:10.12 But the Christianity of even the twentieth century must not be despised.195:10.18 Christianity is an extemporized religion, and therefore must it operate in low gear. High-gear spiritual performances must await the new revelation and the more general acceptance of the real religion of Jesus. But Christianity is a mighty religion, seeing that the commonplace disciples of a crucified carpenter set in motion those teachings which conquered the Roman world in three hundred years and then went on to triumph over the barbarians who overthrew Rome. This same Christianity conquered — absorbed and exalted — the whole stream of Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy. And then, when this Christian religion became comatose for more than a thousand years as a result of an overdose of mysteries and paganism, it resurrected itself and virtually reconquered the whole Western world. Christianity contains enough of Jesus’ teachings to immortalize it.Also, if Jesus was and is totally against the Church, why then does he actually show up during communion, the Lord’s Supper? Taking communion in the remembrance supper may be symbolic in form, but in substance Jesus is actually present. If he didn’t approve of such things, why does he bother to show up to fraternize? Why would he allow communion to be a way to practice the presence of God? It seems to me that he is willing to go the extra mile and overlook silly superstitious beliefs and get to the heart of it all.179:5.6 This supper of remembrance, when it is partaken of by those who are Son-believing and God-knowing, does not need to have associated with its symbolism any of man’s puerile misinterpretations regarding the meaning of the divine presence, for upon all such occasions the Master is really present. The remembrance supper is the believer’s symbolic rendezvous with Michael. When you become thus spirit-conscious, the Son is actually present, and his spirit fraternizes with the indwelling fragment of his Father.103:4.1 Even in Christianity the Lord’s Supper retains this mode of communion. The atmosphere of the communion provides a refreshing and comforting period of truce in the conflict of the self-seeking ego with the altruistic urge of the indwelling spirit Monitor. And this is the prelude to true worship — the practice of the presence of God which eventuates in the emergence of the brotherhood of man.
He despised and rejected the very controlling Jewish way of believing during his time on earth . . .
Oh, not at all. Jesus did not despise his own religion. He despised no-one. He honored anything with value and the Jewish religion had a lot of value, which is why he incarnated as a Jew. It was the best religion on the planet, at the time. The Jews also had the greatest amount of Adamic inheritance of anyone on the planet at the time. Why would he despise that? What he despised was the way his religion was being taught. Jesus was able to find truth in the Old Testament scriptures, a lot of it, actually. He taught all that was true and did not condone the twisting of truth by false or misguided teachers.
21.4.3 In the final bestowal a Creator Son appears as a member of one of the higher mortal races on some inhabited world, usually as a member of that racial group which contains the largest hereditary legacy of the Adamic stock which has previously been imported to upstep the physical status of the animal-origin peoples.
173:3.3 Jesus did not despise the Pharisees and Sadducees personally. It was their systems of teaching and practice which he sought to discredit. He was hostile to no man, but here was occurring the inevitable clash between a new and living religion of the spirit and the older religion of ceremony, tradition, and authority.So again I am saying that Jesus’ Spirit of Truth can’t actually reach us to the degree we need from it so as to fully heal ourselves of our rebellion and truth, and so we need another Spirit of Truth to help us do the job – hence the need for an Avonal bestowal.
There is only one Spirit of Truth. There cannot be two. When an Avonal incarnates in a bestowal mission and returns to Paradise, a Spirit of Truth is given to that world. However, once a Michael Son incarnates, is born of woman, and returns to Paradise, the previously released Spirit of Truth changes in nature to reflect the Master Michael’s sovereignty. There is only one Sovereign, and hence, there is only one Spirit of Truth.
Each world gets only one bestowal Son and we have already had him. If there should be another Avonal Son mission on this world, it would be a Magisterial mission. There would be no incarnation (born of woman) and there would be no change to the already existing Spirit of Truth. Incarnation into mortal flesh (born of woman) by a Paradise Son on a bestowal mission can only happen ONE single time on a planet, and incarnation by a Michael Son can only happen once in the entire universe, and both have already happened, right here by one person, Michael of Nebadon/Jesus. The Spirit of Truth we have now is the only one we will ever get. And, in my experience, there is no need for a spanking new turbocharged Spirit of Truth, as though it were like trading in an old car for a new one.20:6.9 Upon the completion of a Creator Son’s final bestowal the Spirit of Truth previously sent into all Avonal-bestowal worlds of that local universe changes in nature, becoming more literally the spirit of the sovereign Michael. This phenomenon takes place concurrently with the liberation of the Spirit of Truth for service on the Michael-mortal-bestowal planet. Thereafter, each world honored by a Magisterial bestowal will receive the same spirit Comforter from the sevenfold Creator Son, in association with that Magisterial Son, which it would have received had the local universe Sovereign personally incarnated as its bestowal Son.20:2.7 3. Bestowal Missions. The Avonal Sons do all, at least once, bestow themselves upon some mortal race on some evolutionary world. Judicial visits are numerous, magisterial missions may be plural, but on each planet there appears but one bestowal Son. Bestowal Avonals are born of woman as Michael of Nebadon was incarnated on Urantia.For do you see, that Avonal would be able to fully submit to the Rebellion and Default, taking it all on, losing himself to it by becoming untrue by being conceived into it, becoming fully sinful and evil – imperfect, just like we all are; and then at some point in his life realise that how he was living wasn’t actually making him feel very good, and so would seek the truth of his negative, unloving, anti-truth, rebellious state of mind and will, and set about healing himself of all his wrongness. And then once fully healed, upon his death would liberate his Spirit to Truth to work in conjunction with, or ‘just under’, Jesus’ Spirit of Truth, containing within it ALL the truth we need to help us fully heal ourselves, all because of the personal life experience of that Avonal. And that the Avonal would then bridge the vast gulf separating us and Jesus. He literally being ‘the way to Jesus’, and if we ‘followed him’, he’d then lead us to Jesus, just as all the other bestowal Avonals do on all the other worlds.
That sounds eerily like gnosticism to me. It’s pure fantasy. If an Avonal submitted to rebellion, he’d be dealt with immediately by Michael and removed. Becoming untrue is the same as extinction. Are you suggesting that a Paradise Son make himself extinct? I’m guessing you really haven’t read TUB. Maybe you’ve seen words go by, but the meaning of the words have not sunk in at all. Perhaps you missed the part that says the rebellion is over?
There is no vast gulf separating us from Jesus. He lives in your soul. Oh wait, you don’t know what a soul is, do you? Did you get a chance to read my topic on the soul? Jesus is as close to you as you would like him to be. It is entirely up to you to decide to have him near you or far away. He will bestow his presence in response to a sincere desire for it. He will withdraw if you want him to withdraw. It’s entirely up to you, which is why a new Spirit of Truth created by your dream of a demiurge is not at all necessary.13:4.5 The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing. And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms.Zuimon wrote: whereas it’s for an Avonal to effectively terminate the Rebellion, and more importantly in our case, the Default, on earth, all being done in the physical through his personal healing of it within himself, all so we don’t have to wait until we die before we can fully do our healing as many of the spirits in the Padgett Messages have done.As I said before, the rebellion has been terminated. It’s over, done, finished, kaput. I agree that many of the deficiencies we have incurred because of the default, as well as those of our own making, will be remedied on the mansion worlds. However, the dead folks now living on the mansion worlds cannot and do not communicate with humans living on this world. That’s a fact. Padgett received messages from his own twisted mind. He’s a fraud and his messages are fakes. I really don’t think there’s any need to discuss him or his drivel here.
Zuimon wrote: So, does that make any sense?None at all. It’s completely wacko! Most UB wackos are obsessed with the rebellion. The rebellion is not real, and trying to make it real is what makes the mind go wacko. It’s cosmic insanity on display. I suppose there is some value in allowing you to expose wacko ideas, but I think there’s a limit. Where is the administration on this?
Zuimon wrote: He will simply deal only with those people who are sincere truth seekers and who want to do all they can to completely heal themselves of their untrue and false lives.So this demiurge fella won’t be anything like Jesus then, right? Jesus came for the sinners. He said: “Need I remind you that they who are whole need not a physician, but rather those who are sick? I have come, not to call the righteous, but sinners.” (138:3.6)
Odd huh? Odd how Jesus said there were righteous people, people who were not sick. How can that be if everyone is sick from the rebellion? Very odd. So the new guy is not coming for sinners, but for the righteous, which is exactly the opposite of what Jesus did. That sounds like an antichrist to me, just by definition. “Anti-” means doing the opposite, right? Incidentally, do you realize how many times you use the word “heal”? It sounds like you are completely obsessed with healing yourself. Didn’t you say that you could heal yourself by conjuring up all your feelings and expressing them, even the ugly ones? Has that stopped working for you?
Zuimon wrote:That ain’t on, that’s all part of the fantasy worship of a false Jesus, particularly as Jesus himself said in the Padgett Messages that those messages to James Padgett were, and so are, his Second Coming.Here’s the message that Padgett summoned from his subconscious:My coming to you is really my second coming on earth, and the result of my coming in this way will satisfy and fulfill all the promises of the scriptures as to my second coming.Now that hasn’t come true either, has it. So the Jesus living in Padgett’s subconscious mind says that the scriptures are fulfilled! That makes Padgett himself the new Christ! How convenient is that if you’re trying to start your own religion? Turn yourself into a god and hope weak minded, insipid souls believe you! It’s the same nonsense as the Midwayer emails giving the Jehovah’s Witness people the power to melt minds and join the cult. It’s a very powerful tool, but unfortunately it’s just snake oil. And your version of the new John the Baptist is just more snake oil. Sorry to be so blunt, but I’m known for that.Zuimon wrote: I think that if Jesus is going to ever come again in person to earth, then he will come way in the future and through the Morontia Temple whilst on one of his regular world visits.Wait! You can’t have it both ways. Either Padgett is the second coming or Jesus is, make up your mind.
Zuimon wrote: I think that if Jesus were to suddenly appear today the very people who are saying he is coming would deny them, would disbelieve it actually is himMaybe you didn’t read this quote, or perhaps forgot it, or misunderstood it? When Jesus comes again, he cannot be denied. He is the Sovereign. He will be recognized by everyone, which is why it will take a very long time to occur.
176:4.5 Only one thing we are certain of, that is, when he does return, all the world will likely know about it, for he must come as the supreme ruler of a universe and not as the obscure babe of Bethlehem. But if every eye is to behold him, and if only spiritual eyes are to discern his presence, then must his advent be long deferred.
Zuimon wrote: This being the first leg of humanity’s true healing journey, for people will finally have available the truth of how to fully heal themselves, which up until now has not existed in the world.Health, sanity, and happiness come from the recognition and integration of truth, beauty, and goodness. The Spirit of Truth is quite capable of leading us to health, sanity and happiness. The Spirit of Truth is the mind of Christ, and we all know that those who have the mind of Christ in them are becoming new!
100:7.18 It is literally true: “If any man has Christ Jesus within him, he is a new creature; old things are passing away; behold, all things are becoming new.”
Thanks Bonita for keeping it real and focused on the Papers!!
I am very uncomfortable with the description of truth and the Son’s Spirit of Truth given by Zuimon. One of the most illuminating claims of the Papers is that there is nothing within them required to be Spirit-responsive, soul growing, circle progressing, etc. While containing very important facts and truths to reduce confusions and eliminate errors, still the Papers claim all are now fully encircuited in mind ministry sufficiently to aspire to and achieve our full potential regardless of actual knowledge of reality itself.
Thanks again Bonita.
Bradly wrote: Thanks Bonita for keeping it real and focused on the Papers!!Thanks for your support Bradly. It’s becoming abundantly clear that minds obsessed with the chaotic rebellion become equally disorganized. From claiming that there are raping angels, a hating, judging Bright and Morning Star, to now to phony baloney Spirit of Truth who has to go, I’m flabbergasted by the depth of degeneracy. As I said, perhaps there is benefit to allowing this stuff to be exposed, but isn’t there a limit? I’ve reached mine, that’s for sure. I really thought raping angels were the lowest pit of poppycock I’d ever seen. Even the troll’s perseverating fits against Gabriel didn’t horrify me that much. But now, now we’ve encountered a new milestone in the ever increasing depths of detritus, a useless, incompetent, ineffective, impotent Spirit of Truth. Egads! It’s hard to even write that, I can’t believe someone actually thinks it. It’s unimaginable! Tell me this is the worst of it. I really want to believe that.
why the need for this revealer and greater John the Baptist person?
There must come a revival of the actual teachings of Jesus in which Jesus blended man’s highest moral ideas and spiritual ideals with man’s most sublime hope for the future — eternal life. And that was the gospel of the kingdom.170:5:19 Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming “the kingdom of God is at hand” — meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer — and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ. There must come a revival of the actual teachings of Jesus, such a restatement as will undo the work of his early followers who went about to create a sociophilosophical system of belief regarding the fact of Michael’s sojourn on earth. In a short time the teaching of this story about Jesus nearly supplanted the preaching of Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom. In this way a historical religion displaced that teaching in which Jesus had blended man’s highest moral ideas and spiritual ideals with man’s most sublime hope for the future — eternal life. And that was the gospel of the kingdom.Bonita wrote: Each world gets only one bestowal Son and we have already had him.Yup. Each planet gets one bestowal Son. (20:2:7) Regarding the future appearance of Paradise Sons, not even “the angels in heaven know the time or manner of such visitations.” Only time can reveal the future order of the visitations of the Paradise Sons of God on Urantia. (20:4:5)20:5:4 During the course of the long history of an inhabited planet, many dispensational adjudications will take place, and more than one magisterial mission may occur, but ordinarily only once will a bestowal Son serve on the sphere. It is only required that each inhabited world have one bestowal Son come to live the full mortal life from birth to death. Sooner or later, regardless of spiritual status, every mortal-inhabited world is destined to become host to a Magisterial Son on a bestowal mission except the one planet in each local universe whereon a Creator Son elects to make his mortal bestowal.I very much appreciate your due diligence, Bonita, in the discussion. And your patient refutations.I very much appreciate your due diligence, Bonita, in the discussion. And your patient refutations.
Thank you for your support Mara. And thanks for using the word “patient”. It took me almost three hours this morning to write all that stuff. I woke up extra early today and really tried to go back to sleep but couldn’t. Instead I went right to coffee and email only to find all that stuff in my inbox. So glad I had the extra hours today. I really think someone has to do it . . . counterbalance the blankety-blank (can’t think of nice word to call it right now). But it is risky. If Zuimon leaves the forum in a hissy-fit like BB, I’m gonna get hate mail for sure. So be it. I’ll take the risk.
Bonita, do you mean that if I leave in a hissy fit you’ll get hate mail from me, or from other people? Anyway, I won’t be leaving in a hissy fit, and if I’m allowed things will naturally run their course, and I’ll be dispensed with and things can settle down until the next mad challenge comes along. However I do intend to give you a good run for your money. And besides Bonita, I love sparring with you. I’m sorry if it’s difficult for you, god I’ve been writing all day – as well as attending to my bad feelings – and I’m too pooped to even post now, so this is all I can manage. But you’ve helped me no end, to which I will always be very grateful. And perhaps one day we might even catch up on the other side and see who was right after all?
Zuimon,
What exactly is your goal, here? Is it to have a discussion about the Padgett Messages? If so, I am sure there are forums for that. The purpose of this forum is to discuss the Urantia Book. You stated earlier in this thread that “TUB is just a lot of mind information pooled together for us to use in conjunction with the PM ….” If you believe that, why bother joining us in our sincere study of TUB?
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