-
Posts
-
how about this from paper 3
“Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel—literally experience—the full and un- diminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return. Finite appreciation of infinite qualities far transcends the logically limited capacities of the creature because of the fact that mortal man is made in the image of God—there lives within him a fragment of infinity. Therefore man’s nearest and dearest approach to God is by and through love, for God is love. And all of such a unique relationship is an actual experience in cosmic sociology, the Creator-creature relationship—the Father-child affection”
experiencing Fathers love:
our finite appreciation of it transcends our limited capacities and experiencing loves qualities are unlimited.
Can I take it that we can Love the Father in some way that transcends our emotions?
Great topic! I would say that yes, we can love the Father, and become closer to Him, in ways other than emotions.
TUB 101
101:1.3 (1104.6) The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind. But the mind that really discerns God, hears the indwelling Adjuster, is the pure mind. “Without holiness no man may see the Lord.” All such inner and spiritual communion is termed spiritual insight. Such religious experiences result from the impress made upon the mind of man by the combined operations of the Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth as they function amid and upon the ideas, ideals, insights, and spirit strivings of the evolving sons of God.
Great topic! I would say that yes, we can love the Father, and become closer to Him, in ways other than emotions. TUB 101
101:1.3 (1104.6) The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind. But the mind that really discerns God, hears the indwelling Adjuster, is the pure mind. “Without holiness no man may see the Lord.” All such inner and spiritual communion is termed spiritual insight. Such religious experiences result from the impress made upon the mind of man by the combined operations of the Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth as they function amid and upon the ideas, ideals, insights, and spirit strivings of the evolving sons of God.
great quote and it may be the key to our understanding love on a higher level. My guess is the authors of TUB use the word love because we easily relate to it. But the authors likely do not have human emotions so there is a level of transcendence happening that we should be able to experience and understand.
They do tell us over and over again that the ideal is fatherly love. Jesus taught the Father’s love in terms of family relations. I think that is the model we’re supposed to follow while we’re here on earth. Not sure what transcendence has to do with it. I think it’s pretty tangible stuff, stuff we are capable of understanding and practicing everyday. Notice the reference to “earthly” in this quote:
2:5.9 You will increasingly love your Maker; you will yield to God an affection analogous to that given by a child to an earthly parent; for, as a father, a real father, a true father, loves his children, so the Universal Father loves and forever seeks the welfare of his created sons and daughters.
I take that to mean a father’s love here on earth is where we start the learning curve. Sorry for those without loving fathers. And how obvious is it that without loving fathers, things can run amok? Just look at the turmoil in our inner city cultures where fathers are so often absent and you can plainly see how important it is. At one time fatherly priests would step in for some of these orphans, but that is no longer a viable option given the corruption of the Church. Big Brother organizations are doing fine work, but more is needed. Sadly, big gang-brother becomes the mentor instead. I don’t think a transcendent approach to fatherly love is very useful in our current condition. There’s a need to get down in the dirt and work it . . .
Perhaps in later ages, but right now I think the focus should be on the golden rule with effort applied to climbing the six rung ladder to fatherly love. As for the individual who has mastered the golden rule ladder, perhaps transcendence comes into play . . . not sure. But I think that type of person would be too busy sharing fatherly love to bother worrying too much about transcendence. Wouldn’t that type of person have already mastered him/herself? Wouldn’t human emotions be well under self-control? Wouldn’t divine emotions move his/her soul? Perhaps a discussion on divine emotions?
117:6.10 The Father’s love can become real to mortal man only by passing through that man’s personality as he in turn bestows this love upon his fellows. The great circuit of love is from the Father, through sons to brothers, and hence to the Supreme. The love of the Father appears in the mortal personality by the ministry of the indwelling Adjuster. Such a God-knowing son reveals this love to his universe brethren, and this fraternal affection is the essence of the love of the Supreme.
Jesus’ ordination lesson explains how to begin developing fatherly love with four faith attitudes (divine emotions) and how developing fatherly love is itself transcendent.
140:5.3 Jesus did not expect his followers to achieve an impossible manifestation of brotherly love, but he did expect them to so strive to be like God – to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect – that they could begin to look upon man as God looks upon his creatures and therefore could begin to love men as God loves them – to show forth the beginnings of a fatherly affection. In the course of these exhortations to the twelve apostles, Jesus sought to reveal this new concept of fatherly love as it is related to certain emotional attitudes concerned in making numerous environmental social adjustments.
140:5.5 He first talked about those who were poor in spirit, hungered after righteousness, endured meekness, and who were pure in heart. Such spirit-discerning mortals could be expected to attain such levels of divine selflessness as to be able to attempt the amazing exercise of fatherly affection; that even as mourners they would be empowered to show mercy, promote peace, and endure persecutions, and throughout all of these trying situations to love even unlovely mankind with a fatherly love. A father’s affection can attain levels of devotion that immeasurably transcend a brother’s affection.
I’d like to discuss why a fatherly affection transcends a brotherly affection, and why they say the manifestation of brotherly love is impossible. “Impossible” is such an intriguing word . . . makes you want to prove them wrong, but I don’t think they are wrong about that. The contrast between brotherly love and fatherly love is at the core of the conflict between the world’s two most popular religions. It’s huge!
140:5.1 From the Sermon on the Mount to the discourse of the Last Supper, Jesus taught his followers to manifest fatherly love rather than brotherly love. Brotherly love would love your neighbor as you love yourself, and that would be adequate fulfillment of the “golden rule.” But fatherly affection would require that you should love your fellow mortals as Jesus loves you.
This is where I’m coming from, in case anyone cares. Jesus is our model and Jesus had emotions, both human and divine. I don’t think he squelched his human emotions, he merely controlled them. Although, we are told he cried a few times, which makes me think he also experienced a flood of emotions occasionally. It’s what he did that matters though. He never lost control and always directed his free will toward good in the face of evil. Such a man!
I would think a fatherly affection comes out of self-control. Fathers are supposed to be responsible, nurturing, caring and above all, reliably committed to the child’s welfare, always doing what’s in the best interest of his offspring. Human fathers don’t have the same wisdom as divine fathers, but they are expected to perform at the highest level they are capable of. Fortunately for us, Jesus is always available to guide us higher, being the perfect revelation of all a father can be. Which is why we’re taught to love others like he loves us, and he being a father, makes his role all the more powerful. This is the point missing from some religions who see him only as a prophet, their achilles heel so to speak, because they are left with only brotherly love as an option. In my opinion, religious wars are sure to continue as long as this is the case.
140:5.1 From the Sermon on the Mount to the discourse of the Last Supper, Jesus taught his followers to manifest fatherly love rather than brotherly love. Brotherly love would love your neighbor as you love yourself, and that would be adequate fulfillment of the “golden rule.” But fatherly affection would require that you should love your fellow mortals as Jesus loves you.
This is where I’m coming from, in case anyone cares. Jesus is our model and Jesus had emotions, both human and divine. I don’t think he squelched his human emotions, he merely controlled them. Although, we are told he cried a few times, which makes me think he also experienced a flood of emotions occasionally. It’s what he did that matters though. He never lost control and always directed his free will toward good in the face of evil. Such a man! I would think a fatherly affection comes out of self-control. Fathers are supposed to be responsible, nurturing, caring and above all, reliably committed to the child’s welfare, always doing what’s in the best interest of his offspring. Human fathers don’t have the same wisdom as divine fathers, but they are expected to perform at the highest level they are capable of. Fortunately for us, Jesus is always available to guide us higher, being the perfect revelation of all a father can be. Which is why we’re taught to love others like he loves us, and he being a father, makes his role all the more powerful. This is the point missing from some religions who see him only as a prophet, their achilles heel so to speak, because they are left with only brotherly love as an option. In my opinion, religious wars are sure to continue as long as this is the case.
i agree and Jesus was the fourth epochal revelation.
This tidbit from the fifth revelation:
our finite appreciation of it transcends our limited capacities and experiencing loves qualities are unlimited (In my words)
informs us that our capacity to experience Gods love exceeds our logical limits.
Why would the authors tell us this? Everything Jesus taught about this is logical.
in regard to helping fatherless kids our hearts compell us to do something but the fathers that ignore their responsibility to be fathers need just as much help.
our finite appreciation of it transcends our limited capacities and experiencing loves qualities are unlimited (In my words)
Are you referring to this quote:
p50:4 3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel—literally experience—the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.
our finite appreciation of it transcends our limited capacities and experiencing loves qualities are unlimited (In my words)
Are you referring to this quote:
p50:4 3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel—literally experience—the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.
yes, sorry, I should have quoted it directly.
Gene wrote: . . . informs us that our capacity to experience Gods love exceeds our logical limits.Still not clear on your question Gene. Are you talking about levels of emotions, the difference between God’s love and human love, or about capacity and receptivity? I’m confused.
I think our capacity always exceeds our usage of it. TUB informs us that very few people realize how truly rich they are when it comes to capacity:
p556:6 48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.
TUB defines love as the desire to do good to others (56:10.21), and spiritual capacity is measured by faith in truth and love for man (156:5.17). When it comes to capacity I think God gives us more than we realize just by being present in our minds. I don’t think we actually appreciate all that capacity until we consecrate our wills do doing his will. That’s accomplished by developing those four faith attitudes which feed the desire to do good to others and have greater faith in truth, the Spirit of Truth, who directs the loving contact between all persons and things. Not sure if I’m going off on a tangent here or not since I’m not really sure of your question . . . but that never stops me from blabbing . . . sorry.
Gene wrote: . . . informs us that our capacity to experience Gods love exceeds our logical limits.“and the quality of this experience is unlimited”Still not clear on your question Gene. Are you talking about levels of emotions, the difference between God’s love and human love, or about capacity and receptivity? I’m confused. I think our capacity always exceeds our usage of it. TUB informs us that very few people realize how truly rich they are when it comes to capacity:
im not very clear either. I’m thinking the authors are attempting to push us beyond our logical limits in a way that makes us aware that there is this limitless experience that we have available right here right now as finite creatures. Limitless = infinite, something I always considered just conceptual now and awaiting experience in the lives to follow.
p556:6 48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.
“yes, isn’t this quote outlining a logical limit? Self imposed. With the added notion that we can unimpose such limits?”
TUB defines love as the desire to do good to others (56:10.21), and spiritual capacity is measured by faith in truth and love for man (156:5.17). When it comes to capacity I think God gives us more than we realize just by being present in our minds. I don’t think we actually appreciate all that capacity until we consecrate our wills do doing his will. That’s accomplished by developing those four faith attitudes which feed the desire to do good to others and have greater faith in truth, the Spirit of Truth, who directs the loving contact between all persons and things. Not sure if I’m going off on a tangent here or not since I’m not really sure of your question . . . but that never stops me from blabbing . . . sorry.
“yes, God does give us more than we realize and when we come to understand this, the shackles of logical limits are broken – we are freed to move beyond what we thought were limits.”
it makes me consider the possibility that some basic form of mota is available to us as finite beings.
now I’m babbling.
it makes me consider the possibility that some basic form of mota is available to us as finite beings.
Yeah, absolutely! But only on the soul level of intelligence (supermind, Holy Spirit, morontia mind). The problem comes when we try to translate it in our material minds. The material level of intelligence is not equipped for it, which is why they say a pint can never hold a quart (48:7.5). That’s also why we are told to have faith in truth, the Spirit of Truth, who will do the translating for us.
it makes me consider the possibility that some basic form of mota is available to us as finite beings.
Yeah, absolutely! But only on the soul level of intelligence (supermind, Holy Spirit, morontia mind). The problem comes when we try to translate it in our material minds. The material level of intelligence is not equipped for it, which is why they say a pint can never hold a quart (48:7.5). That’s also why we are told to have faith in truth, the Spirit of Truth, who will do the translating for us.
so this material level of intelligence is a real limiting factor that obviously is different than the logical limitations that it can construct..
and I believe the authors of this revelation are pushing us to understand explore and challenge these linits
Gene wrote: . . . so this material level of intelligence is a real limiting factor that obviously is different than the logical limitations that it can construct.. and I believe the authors of this revelation are pushing us to understand explore and challenge these linits
Hmm, so you’re focusing on the second half of the quote? The part about the material mind being able to appreciate quality despite its finite limitations? The fact that the material mind can actually feel the presence of God and have a relationship with him? The gift of creative imagination and the ability of mind ministry to facilitate the awareness of personality presence within?
3:4.6 Finite appreciation of infinite qualities far transcends the logically limited capacities of the creature because of the fact that mortal man is made in the image of God—there lives within him a fragment of infinity. Therefore man’s nearest and dearest approach to God is by and through love, for God is love. And all of such a unique relationship is an actual experience in cosmic sociology, the Creator-creature relationship—the Father-child affection”
Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return. Finite appreciation of infinite qualities far transcends the logically limited capacities of the creature because of the fact that mortal man is made in the image of God—there lives within him a fragment of infinity.
yeah, and this bit:
Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return. Finite appreciation of infinite qualities far transcends the logically limited capacities of the creature because of the fact that mortal man is made in the image of God—there lives within him a fragment of infinity.
its the idea that quality in this loving experience is unlimited. What are they trying to get across to us by that. What can we relate to that is truely unlimited, how do we relate to it, is it more than our emotions? Aren’t they talking about loving the Father directly, not necessarily Involving our Adjuster, the unlimited quality of this personal experience?
How to work with an unlimited quality? Seems beyond finite to me but we would not be informed about this ability if it were.
Maybe im getting off track with the intent of this paper.
Gene wrote: its the idea that quality in this loving experience is unlimited. What are they trying to get across to us by that.Well, I can only tell you how I understand it. Don’t really want to talk for a celestial . . . not qualified to do that. The keyword is obviously quality. The quality of the Father’s love is individualized for each one of us in such a way that we are given the full monty, love replete and specialized for our particular personality. This is accomplished by the presence of the indwelling Adjuster. The quality of his individualized love is unexcelled; there is no other standard to measure it by and it cannot be diminished. Each of us has this, but the quantity, or the degree to which we experience this love, is limited by our ability to give the same degree of love back in the form of doing God’s will. So, quantity goes up with consecration of will, but it’s the same quality of love experienced. Quality is like infinity, it’s unmeasurable; the only thing that is measurable and that can change is quantity, and we are responsible for making that change within the relationship. God is constant; we change. Does that make any sense?
Gene wrote: What can we relate to that is truely unlimited, how do we relate to it, is it more than our emotions?Again, you have to qualify your statement in regards to emotions. There are material feelings and emotions, and there are divine feelings and emotions. Material feelings and emotions arise within the material mind; divine feelings and emotions arise within the soul. Divine emotions and feeling can only be accessed by spiritual insight. Spiritual insight is defined as God-consciousness, a feeling of presence.
[Incidentally, other descriptions/definitions of spiritual insight in TUB are: “mind of the spirit”, moral evaluation with a religious meaning, the recognition of moral values and the discernment of spiritual meanings, to see God by faith, that faculty of human personality which accrues as a consequence of the presence of the God-revealing Thought Adjuster in the God-hungry mortal mind, a gift.]
Material feelings and emotions lead to selfish material acts; divine feelings and emotions lead to religious acts of unselfish service.
p1121:5 102:3.3 Material feelings, human emotions, lead directly to material actions, selfish acts. Religious insights, spiritual motivations, lead directly to religious actions, unselfish acts of social service and altruistic benevolence.
Gene wrote: Aren’t they talking about loving the Father directly, not necessarily Involving our Adjuster, the unlimited quality of this personal experience?No! That can’t happen. It’s not possible until we get to Paradise. All worship (which is the way we love the Father) is done for us by our Adjusters. The material mind gives consent to the soul who craves it, then the Adjuster actually does it over the personality circuit.
5:3.7-8 Sincere worship connotes the mobilization of all the powers of the human personality under the dominance of the evolving soul and subject to the divine directionization of the associated Thought Adjuster. The mind of material limitations can never become highly conscious of the real significance of true worship. Man’s realization of the reality of the worship experience is chiefly determined by the developmental status of his evolving immortal soul. The spiritual growth of the soul takes place wholly independently of the intellectual self-consciousness.
The worship experience consists in the sublime attempt of the betrothed Adjuster to communicate to the divine Father the inexpressible longings and the unutterable aspirations of the human soul–the conjoint creation of the God-seeking mortal mind and the God-revealing immortal Adjuster. Worship is, therefore, the act of the material mind’s assenting to the attempt of its spiritualizing self, under the guidance of the associated spirit, to communicate with God as a faith son of the Universal Father. The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul. True worship, in the last analysis, becomes an experience realized on four cosmic levels: the intellectual, the morontial, the spiritual, and the personal–the consciousness of mind, soul, and spirit, and their unification in personality
5:3.2 But worship is undoubtedly encircuited and dispatched to the person of the Creator by the function of the Father’s personality circuit. We further believe that such registry of the homage of an Adjuster-indwelt creature is facilitated by the Father’s spirit presence. There exists a tremendous amount of evidence to substantiate such a belief, and I know that all orders of Father fragments are empowered to register the bona fide adoration of their subjects acceptably in the presence of the Universal Father.
Login to reply to this topic.
Not registered? Sign up here.