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I would agree with a prior statement of yours that no UB student is worthy for any form of social eugenics engineering, priorities, selections, or plans and neither is any other mortal until wisdom, love, experience, and a better time unit perspective may attend such an effort. But science is creative in its pursuits delivered by the scientific method and will deliver the capabilities of self-eugenic and someday, state mandated eugenics through genetic tests and “cures” which will act, eventually, to reverse current trends of undesirable traits being perpetuated.
Bradly, I must object to you specific wording and phrasing of your statement above, which I found to be extremely offensive and as I read it you seem to imply that the person you appear to be attacking should be eliminated through your hopes of future “state mandated eugenics” not to mention you use of “self-eugenics” which could imply a directive to suicide. This is most SAD that you lower yourself to this type of conduct!
I would agree with a prior statement of yours that no UB student is worthy for any form of social eugenics engineering, priorities, selections, or plans and neither is any other mortal until wisdom, love, experience, and a better time unit perspective may attend such an effort. But science is creative in its pursuits delivered by the scientific method and will deliver the capabilities of self-eugenic and someday, state mandated eugenics through genetic tests and “cures” which will act, eventually, to reverse current trends of undesirable traits being perpetuated.
Bradly, I must object to you specific wording and phrasing of your statement above, which I found to be extremely offensive and as I read it you seem to imply that the person you appear to be attacking should be eliminated through your hopes of future “state mandated eugenics” not to mention you use of “self-eugenics” which could imply a directive to suicide. This is most SAD that you lower yourself to this type of conduct!
Me here: I am perplexed. I stated my agreement with Sab’s post and point on the inability of anyone to determine who is fit and unfit for any mortal methods of eugenics. Who said anything about “elimination” or defined voluntary or self-eugenics as “suicide”. Eugenics has nothing at all to do with death…by murder or by suicide. State mandated eugenics would simply be genetic screening and child bearing licensing….which I contend we still are not wise nor loving enough to bring to society. Sorry, but I have no idea what brought on this misunderstanding. Nothing was directed AT anyone regarding the issue of eugenics…it’s a discussion on eugenics and I voiced agreement with some personal elucidation as to the possible future of eugenics as a voluntary act by child bearing couples.
@Mr. Tharp – the fact that you hold a C-suite position in the Ubite international organization should curtail your tongue, but it doesn’t and you are allowed to babble on personally attacking and distorting REALITY. Do you not realize that I have enough data here on these forums to take you to civil court and expose your LIES about both what is in TUB and about my character? YOU hold the power which means you have more responsibility to not abuse it against little ol’ me… Is someone whispering in your hobo educated ear about how little “power” I have to take you and the Ubite community on….? But really, the only thing that is being clearly revealed is that you truly lack the inherent intelligence, and have never acquired the proper good manners, to discuss TUB with other readers. And the lack of a classic education is evident in the fact that you know NOTHING about the parable of “shooting the messenger”. I am REPORTING the facts.
Me here: I am happy to allow readers to read the words written by me and by others to determine for themselves the content, intent, motive, and agenda of all who share the UB and discuss its contents. I was unaware there is a court to determine one’s scholarship and understanding of the contents of the Revelation….but I’d be willing to submit to such a panel….and so I do and have on multiple reader forums over the years. And I find your so called “facts” invariably wild distortions and false by any measure of education and knowledge of today’s current events or economic or political issues discussed so far….so sign me up for that “court” of knowledge and truth too. And my character has been assassinated by some time to time so that bothers me not so much either…to each their own.
Upon my election, after volunteer service on the fundraising committee, I did offer to cease all posting on all UB sites until the end of my elected office term….I had been posting a few years prior to said election (and unlike you, I’ve never been banished from any of them)…..but was advised I did not need to silence myself as a student and student/teacher of the UB as my self chosen form of dissemination of the teachings already begun and fully engaged. It is unfortunate that Vern chose to “out” me with identification but that is as it is….he had no bad intent or motive and I love him for all the many things we have been through together in service to the UB community and the Association. I do not and never have “spoken for” any other individual or group of people or any organization. I am just a guy giving voice to the wonder and grandeur of this great gift with some 40 years of study and service to this community in many forms and many levels of organizations including the Brotherhood, the Fellowship, and now the Urantia Association International…..not to mention total strangers, my community, and church and family over the years.
Your opinion of me is of no concern and your low opinions of others you have insulted here is of little consequence to any as well. Be angry if you must, hate if you will, fear the shadows as you do….these are your choices to make. I do not require any agreement by other readers and we must all learn the teachings within text and apply them in life to realize and actualize their potential. I demand nothing. But I am frequently found to engage those who misrepresent, twist, torment, distort, and otherwise diminish the Revelation’s teachings and those whose agenda is disruption and confusing those new to the text….especially fear mongers and haters who bully their way onto a pulpit of personalized propaganda.
I have no status in the C Suite except to serve….I do so with joy and in team work with dozens of people from around the world.
Best wishes in finding that peace which passes all understanding and comes from confidence in our origin and our destiny. Fear not, worry not, be anxious for nothing. Eternity ahead, adventure today. Mine is a lovely life thank you, filled with love, friends, family, and my daily work of service to others. I hope the same for all.
This reply has been reported for inappropriate content.
@Tharp – “And I find your so called “facts” invariably wild distortions and false by any measure of education and knowledge of today’s current events or economic or political issues discussed so far….so sign me up for that “court” of knowledge and truth too. ”
Funny coming from you since you have been conducting your own kangaroo court for the “greed is good” crowd and the “anti-semite” clowns – everything anyone says as VALID CRITICISM of your wanton law breaking is an “anti-semite” attack. The ONLY people allowed on Larry Mo and Curly’s site are Jews choked with so much artificial learning that listening to them discuss TUB is a compelete waste of time – it is like they read another book – a 180 twist – THAT is why I was kicked off and you know it.
@Tharp – “…But I am frequently found to engage those who misrepresent, twist, torment, distort, and otherwise diminish the Revelation’s teachings and those whose agenda is disruption and confusing those new to the text….especially fear mongers and haters who bully their way onto a pulpit of personalized propaganda….”
You are truly delusional to try and pin this accusation on me – ROTFL
I guess the rest of the Board is allowing you to operate in this manner for their own agenda which is beyond your sycophant vision’s ability to discern how YOU are being used.
You, Sir, do not stand on the shoulders of everyone who came before you when it comes to freedom of religion in USA and what that really means. If you did, the words, “anti-semite” as an accusation for an excuse to evade the consequences of law breaking on some “vicious minority”s part would never leave your lips on a public forum, much less a TUB forum.
May you be judged as fairly by the Seconaphim as you have judged so many others, as a “student”. I am sure your “origins” will bring you a lavish load of mercy – “for YOU know not what you do”….
Sabinatu wrote: …“fathers” can gain control over the situation with father-love ala Jesus style…Wow Sab, reading back I see you’ve been ruffling a few feathers. I do think though, you have a point regarding the need to delve into the substance of what you are saying, uncomfortable as it is for some. Your manner of delivery however, could do with a makeover. Perfection is the desired destination, not the present estate.I agree with you, that Jesus did not come here for the benefit of existing believers but for his lost sheep. Even the believers were wandering around bewildered. Even when he delivered the unvarnished truth to them, they failed to understand. We simply must get beyond habitual reactions. Now equipped with marvelous truth discerning capabilities we must increasingly, stop, pause, consider, reflect, listen to the inner voice, then reply.Yes, the real fathers must step up.Sabinatu you have spoken of many things, I’ve yet to hear you speak of love.The Father’s love follows us now and throughout the endless circle of the eternal ages. As you ponder the loving nature of God, there is only one reasonable and natural personality reaction thereto: You will increasingly love your Maker; you will yield to God an affection analogous to that given by a child to an earthly parent; for, as a father, so the Universal Father loves and forever seeks the welfare of his created sons and daughters. [Paper2:5.9, page 40.1]
Sabinatu wrote: …Modern problems of child culture are rendered increasingly difficult…Hold on Sab, before you head into a dirge of how terrible things are, pause to consider the statement says, “difficult” not “impossible.”There are intelligent fathers who love their children all around the world.
But the love of God is an intelligent and farseeing parental affection. The divine love functions in unified association with divine wisdom and all other infinite characteristics of the perfect nature of the Universal Father. God is love, but love is not God. The greatest manifestation of the divine love for mortal beings is observed in the bestowal of the Thought Adjusters, but your greatest revelation of the Father’s love is seen in the bestowal life of his Son Michael as he lived on earth the ideal spiritual life. It is the indwelling Adjuster who individualizes the love of God to each human soul. [Paper 2:5.10, page 40:2]
Of all that there is to know, the greatest is, the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it. To live lovingly, as a father would love.
At times I am almost pained to be compelled to portray the divine affection of the heavenly Father for his universe children by the employment of the human word symbol love. [Paper 2:5.11, page 40:3]
From this last statement by a Divine Counselor, I take it there is more to love than we at present have the capacity to appreciate. For the Father rules a whole universe by the compelling power of his love. Love is more catching than hate. Only love will change the world.
Whatever form the application of eugenics will take, unless it is predicated upon intelligent and farseeing parental affection it will have little chance of general acceptance.
Sabinatu I do not doubt you have studied much and benefited from your life’s experiences, however, cleverness is no substitute for character. If you wish to win your fellows you simply must have tact. Look to your motives and find the love in them, and you will have willing listeners who will want to engage with you.
Attitude matters, I maintain, to those who rely on the Father’s guidance, there are no problems, only solutions.
Sabinatu wrote: …Sorry you lost me with this one NFI???It’s a modern acronym my children and their friends frequently employ…………No Fu***ing Idea!Funny coming from you since you have been conducting your own kangaroo court for the “greed is good” crowd and the “anti-semite” clowns – everything anyone says as VALID CRITICISM of your wanton law breaking is an “anti-semite” attack. The ONLY people allowed on Larry Mo and Curly’s site are Jews choked with so much artificial learning that listening to them discuss TUB is a compelete waste of time – it is like they read another book – a 180 twist – THAT is why I was kicked off and you know it.
Me here: Yes, I know why you were kicked off TruthBook…..personalized hate speech. And I’ve been there, with hundreds of others and dozens at a time, for years now and I recall a total of 3 Jewish readers/students in that time as well as many from many religions and faiths and levels of TUB reading. Any review of TruthBook postings over the past decade will reveal some great scholarship on a wide spectrum of issues and topics by some very educated and grounded students so I dispute your attack on all of them and on TB – another wonderful ministry of service provided by sweet souls of great tolerance and patience – it’s not easy to get kicked off TB! And my role has been to allow the book to speak for itself, often being accused of over posting the text itself in that effort. IMO the UB says what it says and don’t say what it don’t and speaks eloquently and redundantly in clear language for our education regarding the universal cosmology and our source, center, and destiny.
I have been posting far longer than serving on the Board and my voice has been consistent although, thankfully, I have learned much from others related to concepts and perspectives to help me better understand this gift of Revelation. I have never requested nor required that any other believe this book is what it claims to be (although I do) and I believe that all believers in Father and in love itself are kindred spirits within the brotherhood of all and our differences are important to one another and the Supreme….unique expressions of the personalized realization of truth, beauty, and goodness.
My lack of graciousness is problematic and needs attending to improve my service to the kingdom, this is true. One may disagree without being disagreeable with sufficient progress in the Spirit. So much for a tadpole to learn….and become. Perhaps it best if I step back from this for a season and allow the dust to settle? We shall see. And as a courtesy, please identify all here by our chosen names. I’m not here for publicity. Thank you.
Some humor would be good to smooth feathers and let some air in the room. For now though I offer a little Zen:
Things are not as they appear…..and neither are they different!
Vern is right to ask Sabinatu to show love in relationships, including those here on the Forum. Tact is so valuable and lack of it holds high potential for pain and suffering. Vern is patient and kind in his remarks and style. Your tone against Brad is not in harmony with Jesus’ admirable modeling in his life. Vern is right to call attention to the higher ways of relating, as did Jesus did even with his enemies.
Read Part IV carefully to see Jesus’ modeling. Other parts in the book tell us to examine our Master Son’s life as Jesus to see what God is like. If we desire to be like God, we will not see the vitriolic tone we despise.
Jesus is a hero for all the world to emulate because his ways bring peace and satisfaction. His ways are good for all participants here and on other discussion forums. Moving away from his modeling brings rage and scorn, too much of which we see in the world today. Tact may be difficult for many of us to learn, but unless we do learn how to be more gracious, the UB authors warn of more strife and suffering.
My suggestion is to take Vern’s advice. To do so will bring greater acceptance. There is no honor for removal from the Forum, which is a high possibility if there is no change in tone. Graciousness is a sign of a love-saturated soul. We all need more.
This conversation topic has been poisoned by apparent bad blood from the past in a different venue. Everyone, go inside to the Father and seek His will. I believe it is not His will to fight with words and emotion. The Forum rules do state, in essence, ‘behave or leave the Forum’. We all would like a respectful place to exchange understandings and ideas regarding the UB teachings. It is those teachings we need to focus on and attempt higher comprehension. Doing so with love and demonstrating to others that love is beginning to saturate ourselves is highly desired here.
Tact may be difficult for many of us to learn, but unless we do learn how to be more gracious, the UB authors warn of more strife and suffering. My suggestion is to take Vern’s advice. To do so will bring greater acceptance. There is no honor for removal from the Forum, which is a high possibility if there is no change in tone. Graciousness is a sign of a love-saturated soul. We all need more.
Thank you Mark…wise counsel…and while I know this was not directed specifically at me, still it is good counsel for us all and which I obviously need to hear and be responsive to as well. I wonder if any here recognize the many Urantia Papers teachings related to the koan I posted above (and copy here)?
For now though I offer a little Zen:
Things are not as they appear…..and neither are they different!
Consider the time unit perspective, the subjective view of all individuals, our dependence on our own limited experience, our prejudice (loyalty to personal knowledge and opinion), etc. So while things are not as they appear to any individual yet they are to us as perceived by us…a lesson in the limitations of the subjective perspective and its limits on the objective totality of reality. This should make us all a little humble in our opinions. Another lesson for this tadpole. For things are not as they appear to me either but they are not different due to my own limitations in perception, experience, knowledge, and spirit progress!!
Thus, we are taught to seek more experience and education and relationships with others to better understand the world and the spirit within by “listening” and seeking to understand “others” and to be willing to transcend our own limits. So much for a tadpole to learn!
Mark Kurtz wrote: …I believe it is not His will to fight with words and emotion.Hi Mark, thanks for your measured words of encouragement.If we put a little effort in being consistent with the spirit of the teachings we are here to discuss much can be achieved. We who are so few actively sharing thoughts in this forum, should arrive at better ways to start a great and eternal friendship than demeaning the other.It is obvious that the message of sonship with God has yet to register with meaning in our largely secular materialist Western society. How to bring attention to the reality of the Father’s presence in a culture that persists in adopting an attitude of ignorance to his reality?The sincere effort of man to become a mechanist represents the tragic phenomenon of that man’s futile effort to commit intellectual and moral suicide. But he cannot do it. [Paper195:7.10, page 2079:5]Eventually the sincere person will cease to resist the Adjuster’s plea and open up his/her heart to truth of personal experience with God.We are blessed in our isolation from the other inhabited worlds for it allows growth in our own unique way, differing so much from the ordained way as it is. What most consider a curse of misfortune of circumstances, not of our doing, is in reality a great blessing.All through the Paradise career, reward follows effort as the result of causes. Such rewards set off the individual from the average, provide a differential of creature experience, and contribute to the versatility of ultimate performances in the collective body of the finaliters. [Paper 50:7.3, page 579:2]This reply has been reported for inappropriate content.
Having a big ego about an ability like throwing a football or hitting a golf ball, or even about how many material conquests over others you have had because you borrowed the tactics of Jesus is one thing. But having a big fat intolerant bigoted RELIGIOUS ego on Ubite boards, well that should just be embarrassing for anyone with a normal mind.
We are NOT starting from scratch when it comes to “eugenics”. I have already judged (there is a reason we call the mind of Jesus “The Spirit of Truth”) that the self-proclaimed “leadership” in this area is not only not qualified, but that they do not even accept the rules about “patient consent”, if you will. You need “Informed Consent” from the human species – which you do not have and do not seem to be interested in getting. INDIVIDUALS in the throes of their reproductive years are having to make decisions – based on what? Should it not be “truth” – that the CHILD has a “god-given” “right” to a healthy body? How is it NOT some kind of “love” to consider first and foremost whether you want to pass on pernicious diabetes or epilepsy? And the only reason this is a big whalloping ISSUE in USA is because “slavery” was brought to USA as a foundational economic model LONG after the rest of Europe set the course in a different direction – the industrial age.
I am just ignoring all the “you should be nicer” comments from the peanut gallery. You are not nice people. Psychos are the most adept at hiding their degeneracy under a veneer of “niceness” that they copy from the normals. If the only people you are going to allow to write on this forum are those from whom you can take away a manner of “love” that will work in the conduct of collosal mass-communication political power seeking perfidy, then I am glad to push those buttons now. I find a lot of wisdom in the contrasts – Jesus was right to come here. It is black and white.
Everytime I come up with a topic that no one from Sadler on down every brought up, that’s when the Ubite religious egos go into their 360 degree head spin – “…how DARE a little nobody like that one ask the question!…”
Wwhat happened to the SOPs that Van and Amadon held to in regards to preserving and promoting the best human strain from the time of the Lucifer Rebellion until they handed over the job to Adam and Eve?
I know that the Mormons and the Jews believe they have some secret knowledge retained from those ancient days, re-channeled back to them via prophets and voices in the head of an abnormal among them, but do they really? Even if they do, are they using it to make their gene pools healthier through their in-breeding? Or are they out there doing all sorts of things without Informed Consent in USA because they are rich (murderous thieving in USA, sorry, that’s the truth) and belong to some spook org?
See. I do not believe there is a nice and tactful way to ask that question about all sorts of “minorites” operating with SOPs they wrote themselves – the whole problem of making stuff up that comes with being monkeys with imagination
First time I heard the tall tales Mormons tell among themselves as “facts”, I was sure they were joking…they’re not. Ditto for the “Jews”, but TUB does note when and where they changed the truth in the “history”, all the while claiming they were loyal to “just the facts”….Well, you can see why there needs to be “arbitration” if you will, between all the religions of authority where they make stuff up based on a personality cult (Smith, Sadler, Abraham, Mohamed, Confucious, etc. etc.).
Science is even in worse shape than religion – thanks to “modern communication” being the biggest promoter of perfidy.
So my suggestion seems quite sane – we are not starting from scratch – and who out there is still not so “diverse” that it can be discerned that biologic survival of the fittest was indeed always practiced among those peoples – probably because they have at least a true verbal bit of knowledge from Van and Amadon’s SOP.
Ubites seem to have forgotten what their JOBS were and Paper 50 was your instruction.
And it all devolved down to “be nicer”, where’s the love, etc etc.
Puerile.
But even Tharp agrees that he would not trust any Ubite to be in charge, considering they only cut and paste the same one-liner when there is so much more in TUB itself that is clearly stated “instruction”.
Next one who wants to get a slap in, don’t bother. Especially if you follow it up with insinuating that YOU heard your TA say go slap Sabinatu and then say that’s not what a TA would tell anyone to do. Selective bit of “contrast” there, no?
Sabinatu wrote: …I am just ignoring all the “you should be nicer” comments from the peanut gallery. You are not nice people.Well my friend, if you think you are on the path of winning hearts and minds I think you are mistaken, you have distracted yourself from speaking sensibly on the topic you initiated.I just read what you wrote looking for some substance, not much amongst all that venting. Did note the SOP reference though.I hope you feel better now that you got that other stuff off your chest.For the benefit of others who may not know the meaning of SOP:StandardOperatingProceduresSeeing Van and Amadon were mentioned, I’ve had a look at Paper 73 where the main task is Planning for the Garden, finding a site and establishing/building it in anticipation of Adam and Eve.Are we to work in anticipation of the arrival of someone? Melchizedek? Michael? Teacher Son?It’s worth considering how far back in history this was (200,000 years ago), and for how long Van and Amadon planned and worked to find a suitable site then build the Garden till they were relived of their duties when Adam & Eve arrived (162,071 years later). And we think 2,000 years is a long time.For almost one hundred years prior to Tabamantia’s inspection, Van and his associates, from their highland headquarters of world ethics and culture, had been preaching the advent of a promised Son of God, a racial uplifter, a teacher of truth, and the worthy successor of the traitorous Caligastia. Though the majority of the world’s inhabitants of those days exhibited little or no interest in such a prediction, those who were in immediate contact with Van and Amadon took such teaching seriously and began to plan for the actual reception of the promised Son. [Paper73:2.1, page 822:5]Van and Amadon were able to win the loyal service of 3,000+ of the surrounding tribes to begin this mighty undertaking.From their highland headquarters and from sixty-one far-scattered settlements, Van and Amadon recruited a corps of over three thousand willing and enthusiastic workers who, in solemn assembly, dedicated themselves to this mission of preparing for the promised — at least expected — Son. [Paper 73:2.3, page 822:7]
Van established one hundred groups of 30 with a captain over each with a liaison officer to report back to him.
Van divided his volunteers into one hundred companies with a captain over each and an associate who served on his personal staff as a liaison officer, keeping Amadon as his own associate. These commissions all began in earnest their preliminary work, and the committee on location for the Garden sallied forth in search of the ideal spot. [Paper 73:2.4, page 822:8]
Then follows an astounding account of brilliant organisation and dedication to purpose as the Garden was built. A Topic worthy of study in itself.
Why don’t we try something quite adventurous……..develop ideas relating to the topic; Eugenics, Planetary Prince style – Paper 50?
And the only reason this is a big whalloping ISSUE in USA is because “slavery” was brought to USA as a foundational economic model LONG after the rest of Europe set the course in a different direction – the industrial age.
Me here: In the name of accuracy, the fact is that slaves were brought here in the 1600’s and about 90% of the slaves in the North American colonies were bred and born here – by the selective breeding eugenics applied by slave owners (in distinction to the Carribean and South America). To be more precise: in 1860, only 400,000 slaves of the 4,000,000 were delivered by slave ship; the rest were born here. Of the total of all slaves over 250 years in our country, the ratio would be somewhat different.
Britain abolished slavery about 20 years before Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation. Industrialization began in the very early 1800’s – with the cotton gin ironically. Also, Britain was the largest of all slave traders, although much of Europe was engaged to supply their colonies with agricultural labor. And it was the industrial era in northern states and Europe specifically that accelerated the slave trade exponentially to supply the industrial cotton gin and garment industry with cotton.
So it is fair, and accurate, to say that our European cousins first brought slaves here while we were a colony, and then created the actual slave trade itself, and then accelerated the slave trade due to industrialization. Interestingly, the U.S. banned the slave trade or importation of any more slaves in the very early 1800’s – although, its enforcement was iffy at best.
It is not uncommon to rewrite history in defense of a political position but I don’t understand the point of it here exactly. Puerile indeed!! Definition: silly or childish especially in a way that shows a lack of seriousness or good judgment
As to the ability to ask questions…is there a question being posted?
I am just ignoring all the “you should be nicer” comments from the peanut gallery. You are not nice people. Psychos are the most adept at hiding their degeneracy under a veneer of “niceness” that they copy from the normals.
Me here: Such an unusual way to make friends and influence people – or present any position or form of rhetoric…perpetual, relentless insults.
Peanut gallery? Not nice people? Psychos? Dengeneracy? Veneer of niceness? Copy from the normals?
Just why do you bother with such unsavory and undesirable elements I wonder?
Bradly wrote: …unusual way to make friends…Hi Bradly, sometimes we hurt the ones we love.
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