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Thank you Bonita. I brought up something on this topic that I’d like to learn more about. While the TAs flow to a world after the Spirit of Truth arrives, what effects does this Son Spirit have in mind with those too young to receive their TA? I haven’t read anything that suggests the Son’s Spirit is limited in mind ministry or circuit connection to only minds that also have the Father Fragment. I know they work together and the TAs come more universally but they are still different ministers to and in mind are they not?
I appreciate your connection of the Adjutants to capacity and potential as well. It seems the mind is like a form of staged “recipe” of multiple ingredients, like bread, , once the yeast is activated by warm water, flour and egg and water stirred in, turned out for kneading, rolling and folding – working the dough – now steps of resting and rising the dough before it suddenly becomes bread at a certain temperature over a certain time. This is the work of Mother I think that, on our world now, is receptive to intuitions and truth ministry, especially the role of confirmer and encourager of the Son’s Spirit – all prior to and critical to the arrival of TA….??? And, as you point out, mind itself and personality also come from Father, regardless of the TAs presence. It seems many cooks are in the kitchen from our birth to TA endowment.
I hope my crude analogy does not confound my point. This text about morality’s evolutionary process and “antecedent to” seems particularly relevant here:
(68.4) 5:5.1 Morality has its origin in the reason of self-consciousness; it is superanimal but wholly evolutionary. Human evolution embraces in its unfolding all endowments antecedent to the bestowal of the Adjusters and to the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth…
Thanks again.
TUB wrote: If children could use their personalities . . . To make a moral choice is to use your personality.Now this is interesting. So you’re admitting that children have personalities then? In regards to being able to use their personalities, this is my point. A child cannot learn to use a personality unless he/she has one to learn about. It is when the child learns how to use the personality that it begins to realize its powers. The powers of personality are: the power of choice; the power of moral discrimination; and the power to unify. When the child gains some control over these powers, when it recognizes its personal responsibility in regards to these powers, it enters the 7th psychic circle. Animals cannot do any of this, even with the help of magic.Reader wrote: . . . Of course the discovery of the real companion behind the human intellect’s ego-sponsored ‘mask’ will be further augmented by the increasing recognition that it had indeed been sponsor of all those adjustments of thought which tended softly away from the praying ego’s early ego-concerns and toward that elimination of self-contentIt might be useful to remember that not all “praying egos” have ego concerns, nor does everyone hide behind an ego mask. Not all egos are evil in their intent. God listens to the prayer’s intention. Adjustments in thought have to do with meanings and values. Not all egos interpret meanings and values in selfish, egoistic ways. Some egos are pure of heart, humble and childlike. Jesus said we should pray like children, which would suggest innocence, trustfulness, meekness, authenticity, loyalty and respect. Some people actually do that with the greatest sincerity.
48:6.32 And while you are learning to think as men, you should also be learning to pray as children.
It might also be useful to remember that the presence of God dwells within the superconcsous. The superconscious is accessible only through the soul. An intellect preoccupied with masks is not accessing the soul, nor is it accessing the gateway to the soul.
… But before a child has developed sufficiently to acquire moral capacity and therefore to be able to choose altruistic service, he has already developed a strong and well-unified egoistic nature. 103:2:9
This quote might pose a challenge to both sides of this discussion about childhood. We read that a well-unified egoistic nature has sufficient time to develop before it attains to moral capacity. But can we consider this to be the potential personality of a sixth-stage finaliter? Or is this “egoistic nature” something less than bona fide personality, more akin to pre-human animal consciousness?
the quotation continues…
… And it is this factual situation that gives rise to the theory of the struggle between the “higher” and the “lower” natures, between the “old man of sin” and the “new nature” of grace. 103:2:9
I notice they use the word ‘theory’ and not ‘reality’ here.
Very early in life the normal child begins to learn that it is “more blessed to give than to receive.” 103:2:9
“Very early in life” is not a clearly defined age. But to hearken back to another thread – I judge that it requires spiritual insight to learn this lessson.
-Reader
Bradly wrote: This text about morality’s evolutionary process and “antecedent to” seems particularly relevant here:(68.4) 5:5.1 Morality has its origin in the reason of self-consciousness; it is superanimal but wholly evolutionary. Human evolution embraces in its unfolding all endowments antecedent to the bestowal of the Adjusters and to the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth…Oh absolutely! Morality has its origin in self-consciousness and self-consciousness is impossible without personality. Morality must evolve. Personality cannot evolve; it is pattern and never changes, but it has the power to provide the psychic fulcrum. The personality is never left without assistance in its four major quests: knowledge; moral values; spiritual values; and, personality values. The purpose of the adjutants as mind ministry is to assist the personality with those inherent quests, and when the individual arrives at a point where it needs additional help, it arrives in the form of spirit presence: Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth and Thought Adjuster. It’s a lovely overlapping of ministry of both mind and Deity personality. And within our consciousness, it appears smooth and seamless, nary a wrinkle in sight.65:7.7 The adjutants function exclusively in the evolution of experiencing mind up to the level of the sixth phase, the spirit of worship. At this level there occurs that inevitable overlapping of ministry — the phenomenon of the higher reaching down to co-ordinate with the lower in anticipation of subsequent attainment of advanced levels of development. And still additional spirit ministry accompanies the action of the seventh and last adjutant, the spirit of wisdom. Throughout the ministry of the spirit world the individual never experiences abrupt transitions of spirit co-operation; always are these changes gradual and reciprocal.As for your question about the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth sojourns with the soul. Until there is a soul, I doubt the ability for him to personally affect the mind in a meaningful way. His function is limited by the presence of the Holy Spirit and also partially by the individual’s receptivity of the sum and substance of his mission on earth. (p379:5 34:5.5) However, I’m certain that the evolving mind of the pre-Adjustered child is capable desiring his presence and of recognizing the possibility of establishing a relationship with Jesus on some level. In fact, as in my case, his personality became the personality of my imaginary companion which I formed around age 4 after receiving some children’s books of Bible stories with beautiful illustrations of Jesus interacting with children. He seemed like the perfect person to me even then. I think the personality’s power of moral discernment is active even in the pre-Adjuster state because of the presence of the 5th adjutant. This is why role models, especially fathers, are so important to children in the very early years.Bonita, you write:
It might also be useful to remember that the presence of God dwells within the superconcsous. The superconscious is accessible only through the soul. An intellect preoccupied with masks is not accessing the soul, nor is it accessing the gateway to the soul.
Indeed, an ego preoccupied with relations to its own self-defined concept of an alter ego is probably not directly accessing the superconscious, but only appealing to a kind of self-generated super-ego.
But it is I think the prerogative of the indwelling spirit to make use of any sincere gesture in its direction. That’s why primitive religion has a value for both humanity and deity, even though it may be ridiculously materialistic.
-Reader
Reader wrote: This quote might pose a challenge to both sides of this discussion about childhood. We read that a well-unified egoistic nature has sufficient time to develop before it attains to moral capacity. But can we consider this to be the potential personality of a sixth-stage finaliter? Or is this “egoistic nature” something less than bona fide personality, more akin to pre-human animal consciousness?Wait . . . so you’re saying that animals have egos? I’m sure you don’t mean that.
So just what is a well-unified egoistic nature then? The quote is explaining that the child has a well-unified sense of self before attaining the capacity to evaluate the differing needs between oneself and other-than-self, and that this time is necessary before the child can make appropriate moral decisions. Watching very young children in play you will witness the “it’s mine” phenomena, the inability to share playthings. In the evolution of the concept of selfhood, the child must first learn the difference between self and other-than-self. Most children move through this stage rather quickly and begin to see the value of sharing. But it is not the first inclination of the evolving ego because of the necessity to establish selfhood first. This behavior doesn’t indicate that the child is hateful and mean-spirited (egotistic); it simply means that the child needs to establish a self-boundary (egoistic) before learning about the relationship between self and other-than-self. There is a difference between egoistic and egotistic, although admittedly subtle.
Reader wrote: But it is I think the prerogative of the indwelling spirit to make use of any sincere gesture in its direction. That’s why primitive religion has a value for both humanity and deity, even though it may be ridiculously materialistic.Absolutely! Even the faintest flicker. We are never left without help from above as long as we desire it on some level, even unconsciously.
Bonita, you write:
Wait . . . so you’re saying that animals have egos? I’m sure you don’t mean that.
Bonita, you’re quite right, I was not saying that your concept of ‘animal’ could enjoy the reality represented by your concept of ‘ego.’ But I have no problem describing certain complexes of animal behavior as indicative of an ‘egoistic nature.’ Remember the ‘primitive self-consciousness” which the authors allow is possessed by certain higher mammals an a result of the function of the third adjutant? (at least that’s how I remember it, if you don’t recognize it, I’ll find the quote).
It is not outside the scope of modern discourse to refer to humans as members of the animal kingdom. You are too sensitive about ‘evil’ associations with this simple fact of evolution, in my opinion.
Reader wrote: Remember the ‘primitive self-consciousness” which the authors allow is possessed by certain higher mammals an a result of the function of the third adjutant? (at least that’s how I remember it, if you don’t recognize it, I’ll find the quote).No, no, no, no . . . . not so! As soon as an animal becomes self-conscious, it becomes a primitive man. Self-consciousness and personality go together. Can’t have one without the other.
133:7.6 When any animal becomes self-conscious, it becomes a primitive man.
16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.
I believe you’re referring to the partial emergence of will, which has nothing to do with the adjutants.
24:2.8 The partial emergence of will observed in the reactions of certain of the higher animals does not belong to the domain of the Census Directors. They keep count of nothing but bona fide will creatures, and they are responsive to nothing but will function. Exactly how they register the function of will, we do not know.
Reader wrote:You are too sensitive about ‘evil’ associations with this simple fact of evolution, in my opinion.I don’t know, perhaps you’re too obsessed with the evil associations of ego? I consider such ideas relics of the past. The ego cannot be removed from self, but it can be forgotten. Self-forgetfulness is the hallmark of self-mastery.3:5.13 Is unselfishness — the spirit of self–forgetfulness — desirable? Then must mortal man live face to face with the incessant clamoring of an inescapable self for recognition and honor. Man could not dynamically choose the divine life if there were no self-life to forsake. Man could never lay saving hold on righteousness if there were no potential evil to exalt and differentiate the good by contrast.196:0.9 And yet, despite this very deep consciousness of close relationship with divinity, this Galilean, God’s Galilean, when addressed as Good Teacher, instantly replied, “Why do you call me good?” When we stand confronted by such splendid self–forgetfulness, we begin to understand how the Universal Father found it possible so fully to manifest himself to him and reveal himself through him to the mortals of the realms.… At first only the spirit of intuition could function in the instinctive and reflex behavior of the primordial animal life. With the differentiation of higher types, the spirit of understanding was able to endow such creatures with the gift of spontaneous association of ideas. Later on we observed the spirit of courage in operation; evolving animals really developed a crude form of protective self-consciousness. Subsequent to the appearance of the mammalian groups, we beheld the spirit of knowledge manifesting itself in increased measure. And the evolution of the higher mammals brought the function of the spirit of counsel, with the resulting growth of the herd instinct and the beginnings of primitive social development. 62:6:3Animals cannot do any of this, even with the help of magic.
Andon and Fonta did. They were animals for their childhood and became human beings. The same process happens in humans. I am sure Andon and Fonta did many things that we call “human” as animals.
TUB wrote: A personal self starts to develop around age 6, Around the age of 6 the child begins to develop a SOUL. The soul is not a personal self, as you call it. The soul is not personal at all. In order to use the word personal, there must be the presence of personality. The soul is not a personality (0:5.11).
The soul is a copy of our personal self it is a morontia duplicate of our higher self. But that is a different topic…
A crude form of protective self-consciousness is not indicative of the presence of personality, not even primitive. If it were so, then all animals in contact with the 3rd adjutant would be considered primitive men according to Jesus. Nothing jives there. Self-protection does not indicated the awareness of self existence. Self-protection is an animal instinct. Even the trilobites would curl up in self-protection. Does that mean that trilobites had a crude form of self-consciousness? Possibly, but it does not mean that they had personality nor could they be considered primitive men.
TUB wrote: Andon and Fonta did. They were animals for their childhood and became human beings.On the contrary. We are told that Andon and Fonta were born as human beings. Even before the spirit of wisdom made contact with their minds, they are referred to as “These first two humans.” They very early learned vocal language. Animals do not have vocal language skills. Then, the Life Carriers and associates conspired to “lead the human twins northward.” Andon and Fonta are referred to as humans long before they entered the 7th psychic circles. I’m sure, with their exact and precise use of language, the revelators would have referred to them as pre-humans or potential humans, if they were not already human.
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