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The loving attachment you guys have to children clouds your interpretation of this line.
Or, perhaps, it is your lack of such experience that allows a misunderstanding of this obvious reality – toddlers are altruistic and generous – how so?
(1131.7) 103:2.8 When a moral being chooses to be unselfish when confronted by the urge to be selfish, that is primitive religious experience. No animal can make such a choice; such a decision is both human and religious. It embraces the fact of God-consciousness and exhibits the impulse of social service, the basis of the brotherhood of man. When mind chooses a right moral judgment by an act of the free will, such a decision constitutes a religious experience.
(1131.8) 103:2.9 But before a child has developed sufficiently to acquire moral capacity and therefore to be able to choose altruistic service, he has already developed a strong and well-unified egoistic nature. And it is this factual situation that gives rise to the theory of the struggle between the “higher” and the “lower” natures, between the “old man of sin” and the “new nature” of grace. Very early in life the normal child begins to learn that it is “more blessed to give than to receive.”
Yes, the 7th circle is entered WHEN human beings DEVELOP the powers of personal choice AND moral responsibility
Exactly….. And it takes until roughly age 6 for a child to develop the powers of personal choice and moral responsibility. If a 3 year old developed the ability to make a personal choice the adjuster would immediately come into that child and that child would immediately become a 7th circler. There is definitely something happening at a certain age in a childs development. I don’t know what exactly but my guess is that the Local Mother Spirit does something to help get the child going with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps through grace the child is given a measure of personal character at a certain age. I am not sure what all the little details are.
Brad I don’t think that quote helped your case…
(1131.8) 103:2.9 But before a child has developed sufficiently to acquire moral capacity and therefore to be able to choose altruistic service
That means at some point there is no ability to choose altruistic service, which goes with what I am saying.
(1131.8) 103:2.9 he has already developed a strong and well-unified egoistic nature. And it is this factual situation that gives rise to the theory of the struggle between the “higher” and the “lower” natures, between the “old man of sin” and the “new nature” of grace. Very early in life the normal child begins to learn that it is “more blessed to give than to receive.”
This is why I mentioned that there is 2 selves. A animal-origin (temporal) self and an alter-ego or higher self. (71.2) 5:6.7 The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity
While there is much more to say and learn on this issue Scott, let me suggest we start another topic on this very interesting subject – Pre-TA Life or Mind – or Personality or something of the sort. I’ll let you lead. But I must insist that children without TA yet do have personality and connectivity to the Mother and are certainly not animals. They do not yet have survival capacity as is discussed in the section of the Mansion World nurseries but this does not make them prepersonal or impersonal beings. The bestowal of personality with ego mind (remember, animals do not have ego) suggests that children are spirit connected and can act altruistically, by their very nature, prior to the arrival of the TA. I don’t recall that the TA is required for the Son’s Spirit of Truth to be active in mind either….????
And what of the rest of the full quote Scott? The ability to choose altruistic “service” does not mean the inability to be selfless or altruistic – by nature and by choice, as I have witnessed many times. Animals and animal mind do not have “personality and identity”. Children do – pre-TA children do.
(1131.8) 103:2.9 But before a child has developed sufficiently to acquire moral capacity and therefore to be able to choose altruistic service, he has already developed a strong and well-unified egoistic nature. And it is this factual situation that gives rise to the theory of the struggle between the “higher” and the “lower” natures, between the “old man of sin” and the “new nature” of grace. Very early in life the normal child begins to learn that it is “more blessed to give than to receive.”
A highly functioning animal can have an identity. Spornagia are animals and possess an individuality.
46:7.4.Although spornagia neither possess nor evolve survival souls, though they do not have personality, nevertheless, they do evolve an individuality which can experience reincarnation. When, with the passing of time, the physical bodies of these unique creatures deteriorate from usage and age, their creators, in collaboration with the Life Carriers, fabricate new bodies in which the old spornagia re-establish their residences.
Apologies for the tangent Bonita….but I can see the relation here with your topic…..when does the mind discover alter-ego and begin this conversation of evolutionary concept development?
OK Scott….but what about personality? Pre-TA children have personality and spirit circuitry and altruism and morality expression. Paper 5 gives us many clues about the personality circuit and the progressive nature of morality and religious experience, both of which are fully available to those without TA, including children IMO based on my personal experience with little children.
(68.4) 5:5.1 Morality has its origin in the reason of self-consciousness; it is superanimal but wholly evolutionary. Human evolution embraces in its unfolding all endowments antecedent to the bestowal of the Adjusters and to the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth…
(70.2) 5:6.1 The Universal Father is the God of personalities. The domain of universe personality, from the lowest mortal and material creature of personality status to the highest persons of creator dignity and divine status, has its center and circumference in the Universal Father. God the Father is the bestower and the conservator of every personality. And the Paradise Father is likewise the destiny of all those finite personalities who wholeheartedly choose to do the divine will, those who love God and long to be like him.
(70.3) 5:6.2 Personality is one of the unsolved mysteries of the universes. We are able to form adequate concepts of the factors entering into the make-up of various orders and levels of personality, but we do not fully comprehend the real nature of the personality itself. We clearly perceive the numerous factors which, when put together, constitute the vehicle for human personality, but we do not fully comprehend the nature and significance of such a finite personality.
(70.4) 5:6.3 Personality is potential in all creatures who possess a mind endowment ranging from the minimum of self-consciousness to the maximum of God-consciousness. But mind endowment alone is not personality, neither is spirit nor physical energy. Personality is that quality and value in cosmic reality which is exclusively bestowed by God the Father upon these living systems of the associated and co-ordinated energies of matter, mind, and spirit. Neither is personality a progressive achievement. Personality may be material or spiritual, but there either is personality or there is no personality. The other-than-personal never attains the level of the personal except by the direct act of the Paradise Father.
(70.5) 5:6.4 The bestowal of personality is the exclusive function of the Universal Father, the personalization of the living energy systems which he endows with the attributes of relative creative consciousness and the freewill control thereof. There is no personality apart from God the Father, and no personality exists except for God the Father. The fundamental attributes of human selfhood, as well as the absolute Adjuster nucleus of the human personality, are the bestowals of the Universal Father, acting in his exclusively personal domain of cosmic ministry.
Young children are living systems with freewill control…..of an entire household! And they are naturally gregarious, generous, and altruistic. Why and how so?
Well Brad my mind is made up on this topic. I haven’t found anything in TUB that would suggest a child before roughly age 6 is functioning as a personal being. This is how I feel about the alter-ego. A personal self starts to develop around age 6, and a child begins to have a dialogue between the personal self and the animal origin self. IMO the alter-ego is in reality this personal self that is budding out from the animal origin self.
Well Brad my mind is made up on this topic. I haven’t found anything in TUB that would suggest a child before roughly age 6 is functioning as a personal being.
My dear Brother and Friend – we have agreed on much the past few years and disagreed on some. I do not share your confidence in either your own or my own understanding and do not argue in any hope of agreement, persuasion, or proof. My perspective is nothing more than that – my perspective, but let me warn you of the mind poison of prejudice – your opinion or “mind is made up” is very dangerous and constrictive – caution my Friend.. I hope you see the tongue in my cheek and humor in saying this: the confidence of youth and its beliefs are most humorous to me ….and inspiring in its ridiculous and hilarious way.
I no longer have such confidence in many of my own understandings. My uncertainty is most certain indeed!! Life has taught me two things: the fallibility of believing and accepting the truth of other mortal minds…and cementing the truth “known” by my own understanding….now. I hope you are skeptical of my opinion/experience and, more importantly, that you remain skeptical of your own.
Oh, the confidence of youth!!!!!!! What a privilege….and fantasy!!!!!!!!!! Your “mind is made up”?????!!!!! PLEASE!!!! The older one gets and the more one comes to know which changes and contradicts what was once so certainly known, the more uncertain one’s certainty becomes…..if one is a true truth seeker….as you are Brother. I do not attempt to convince or change your mind Dear Brother but merely contribute my experience for your consideration and reflection ….you well know that truth is progressive so do not cement your position into prejudice.
I do not disagree with you out of confidence in my interpretation of text, just personal experience and observation, as I have witnessed the progression of infant to toddler, and toddler to TA indwelling. That experience, in multiples, leads me to believe that pre-TA children are “persons” with personality and choice, who exhibit altruism that is not natural to animals and are, indeed, altruistic or friendly, gregarious to a fault, generous far beyond self interest, and caring “individuals” with personality who will sacrifice “self” interest for others they “love”. They are not “animals” which become “souls” at some magic age. There is a profound distinction. I do not pretend to either understand nor explain this profound difference.
Bonita…again, my apologies for straying from your original topic: the origination, value, and purpose of the alter ego. My opinion is that this is a fundamental circuitry of all mortal mind and inserted for the very purpose of seeking and finding God. How and why are infants infused with altruism and the alter ego creation/response, if not as a normal, elementary, progressive, and opportunistic vehicle of the initial and crucial moral insight and spirit contact??? Thank you for your sharing of such a profound and important teaching.
TUB wrote: A 4 year old cannot choose between good and evil (moral choice). That means there is no activity of wisdom, and without the spirit of wisdom there is no human mind.So, you’re saying that human children are born into this world with only the first five adjutant mind spirits functioning in their minds and this fact makes their minds the equivalent of Andon and Fonta, primates from one million years ago with only one genetic mutation away from monkeys? You’re implying that those children born since the Adamic genetic upstep, which included scores of genetic changes, makes absolutely no difference what so ever? And this is your basis for declaring that children, before entering the 7th psychic circle, are simple, stupid animals?TUB wrote: I don’t know what exactly but my guess is that the Local Mother Spirit does something to help get the child going with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps through grace the child is given a measure of personal character at a certain age. I am not sure what all the little details are.Well . . . by your own admission, the child has no access to the Holy Spirit until entering the 7th psychic circle. So, how can the Holy Spirit do “something to help get the child going” if she isn’t even functioning with its mind yet?And then you say that the child gets “a measure” of personal character by grace? Personal character is synonymous with the word personality. So now you are admitting the presence of personality before entering the 7th psychic circle?You say that you are not sure about all the details, but some of us are sure. Here’s how the midwayers described Jesus at the age of three.123:1.2 Jesus was about three years and two months old at the time of their return to Nazareth. He had stood all these travels very well and was in excellent health and full of childish glee and excitement at having premises of his own to run about in and to enjoy. But he greatly missed the association of his Alexandrian playmates.And then at the age of four:123:1.4 Jesus’ entire fourth year was a period of normal physical development and of unusual mental activity. Meantime he had formed a very close attachment for a neighbor boy about his own age named Jacob. Jesus and Jacob were always happy in their play, and they grew up to be great friends and loyal companions.If Jesus, like any other average child his age, had NO personality as you claim, if he was just a mere simple, stupid animal, then how did he form associations and companionships? This is a function of personality. Only personalities can fellowship with other personalities.1:7.1 Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship.If Jesus was functioning as an animal, then these attachments to other humans would have to be at the animal level of herd instinct. Surely you recognize the personality of the child Jesus. And remember, Jesus was an average human child.The revelators tell us that the 3rd adjutant mind spirit, when combined with personality, provides the root of moral stamina. If, as you say, children are only stupid animals functioning with the first five adjutants, then you are saying that they would NOT have access to this root. But if children ARE personalities, they would have access to it. And even at the age of three, they would have access to the basis of character and moral discernment on a primitive level. Don’t you think that this is the source of “grace” you speak of?36:5.8 3. The spirit of courage – the fidelity endowment – in personal beings, the basis of character acquirement and the intellectual root of moral stamina and spiritual bravery. When enlightened by facts and inspired by truth, this becomes the secret of the urge of evolutionary ascension by the channels of intelligent and conscientious self-direction.And here below, the description of the 5th adjutant mind spirit speaks of will creatures. (That would be creatures with personality.) Even Jesus at the age of 3 and 4, and without having entered the 7th psychic circle, had access to this adjutant which enabled him to harmonize with his fellow playmates. But, lowly animals are only instinctively gregarious when using this adjutant. Jesus at age three, because of the presence of personality and its precious free will, used it to harmonize with his fellows, also known as fellowship, something only personalities can do.36:5.10 5. The spirit of counsel – the social urge, the endowment of species co-operation; the ability of will creatures to harmonize with their fellows; the origin of the gregarious instinct among the more lowly creatures.TUB wrote: A highly functioning animal can have an identity. Spornagia are animals and possess an individuality.In this instance, the word individuality means that one sporangia can be distinguished from another. The word refers to a separate existence for each sporangia that is maintained even through reincarnation. There is nothing to suggest the presence of identity in sporangia. Plants and animals do not have identity. What makes sporangia different from animals on earth is what happens after death. Animals on earth have no individuality after death whereas sporangia maintain their individuality after death and are reborn exactly as they were. Earth animals are absorbed back into the cosmic forces of the universe.
123:1.4 Jesus’ entire fourth year was a period of normal physical development and of unusual mental activity. Meantime he had formed a very close attachment for a neighbor boy about his own age named Jacob. Jesus and Jacob were always happy in their play, and they grew up to be great friends and loyal companions.Spornagia can have attachments to people. Spornagia can also talk. Elephants form strong attachments.123:1.2 Jesus was about three years and two months old at the time of their return to Nazareth. He had stood all these travels very well and was in excellent health and full of childish glee and excitement at having premises of his own to run about in and to enjoy. But he greatly missed the association of his Alexandrian playmates.A Spornagia could miss people. An elephant will sometimes mourn the death of a child.But if children ARE personalities, they would have access to it. And even at the age of three, they would have access to the basis of character and moral discernment on a primitive level. Don’t you think that this is the source of “grace” you speak of?If children could use their personalities they would be able to do good, or make a good choice. Even Jesus had to wait until a certain age to be able to make a moral choice. To make a moral choice is to use your personality. The authors flat out tell us that children cannot. Therefor it is obvious that they are not using their personality. There are many quotes that I could draw upon to make my point.Bradly wrote: Apologies for the tangent Bonita….but I can see the relation here with your topic…..when does the mind discover alter-ego and begin this conversation of evolutionary concept development?Hey, no need to apologize. Scott’s tangents seem to dominate this forum though, don’t they? So yeah, this thread is supposed to be about the alter ego and PRAYER, not about ego. It would be nice to get back to the original topic.
When does the mind discover the alter-ego you ask? I imagine it is different for each PERSONALITY, due to that precious commodity we refer to as free will. The revelators give us a clue though and say that it begins with the dawn of the creative imagination. (Again, something only personalities are capable of.) Everyone knows that children, even before the age of 5 or 6, have active creative imaginations, especially since the Adamic upstep.
91:3.1 Children, when first learning to make use of language, are prone to think out loud, to express their thoughts in words, even if no one is present to hear them. With the dawn of creative imagination they evince a tendency to converse with imaginary companions. In this way a budding ego seeks to hold communion with a fictitious alter ego. By this technique the child early learns to convert his monologue conversations into pseudo dialogues in which this alter ego makes replies to his verbal thinking and wish expression. Very much of an adult’s thinking is mentally carried on in conversational form.
TUB wrote: A personal self starts to develop around age 6,Around the age of 6 the child begins to develop a SOUL. The soul is not a personal self, as you call it. The soul is not personal at all. In order to use the word personal, there must be the presence of personality. The soul is not a personality (0:5.11).
Bradly wrote: . . . again, my apologies for straying from your original topic: the origination, value, and purpose of the alter ego. My opinion is that this is a fundamental circuitry of all mortal mind and inserted for the very purpose of seeking and finding God. How and why are infants infused with altruism and the alter ego creation/response, if not as a normal, elementary, progressive, and opportunistic vehicle of the initial and crucial moral insight and spirit contact??? Thank you for your sharing of such a profound and important teaching.The concept of an alter ego seems to have its origin in the creative imagination. Personality needs other personality; it is its inherent nature to relate to other personalities, invented or real. With the gift of personality comes the insatiable desire for a relationship with other personalities. The physical presence of personalities in relation to a young child determines its social development. But the child needs more than physical relations, it needs mental ones too. There is no person so close to you as the one living within your very own mind. Before entering the 7th psychic circle, children do not have the luxury of the presence of Deity living within their minds; therefore, it is my contention that they invent the presence.
The first five adjutant mind spirits, especially the 5th, are sufficient to allow for the creation of a mental companion, especially in the presence of personality (free will and creative imagination). Once entering the 7th psychic circle, the consciousness of other-mindedness within the environment of selfhood is NOT invented, it is due to the actual presence of Deity. A child practices its fellowshipping skills with an imaginary mental companion, which then translates into a relationship with a real companion within the mind. The difference being that prior to the 7th circle, the imaginary friend is a product of the adjutant mind; after the arrival of the Holy Spirit, this real friend resides in the supermind. The transition between the adjutant mind and the supermind begins with the united function of the adjutants under the guidance of the spirit of wisdom, which when aroused, functions as the gateway from one level to the next.
102:4.3 Man very early becomes conscious that he is not alone in the world or the universe. There develops a natural spontaneous self-consciousness of other-mindness in the environment of selfhood. Faith translates this natural experience into religion, the recognition of God as the reality — source, nature, and destiny — of other-mindness. But such a knowledge of God is ever and always a reality of personal experience. If God were not a personality, he could not become a living part of the real religious experience of a human personality.
Bonita, you write:
If the praying ego follows spirit lead in the relationship, the imaginary companion will evolve into an actual spirit presence.
I would suggest the following as a suitable re-statement of the clause I have italicized above (your words underlined)
If the praying ego follows spirit lead in the relationship, allowing her relationship with her conceptualized ‘alter ego’ to be the ground of true adjustments in thought which in fact alter her attachment to ego-concerns, eventually the actual spirit presence will be discovered as having been there all along as the only real companion, and the source of inspiration for all that thought adjustment and spirit leading.
Anyway it makes more sense to me to depict it this way. Of course the discovery of the real companion behind the human intellect’s ego-sponsored ‘mask’ will be further augmented by the increasing recognition that it had indeed been sponsor of all those adjustments of thought which tended softly away from the praying ego’s early ego-concerns and toward that elimination of self-content which moves prayer into the realm of those sublime interactions of loving service to God and man which constitute true worship.
You also write:
If you have not experienced an actual spirit presence yourself, no words would suffice to explain it.
Bonita, I grant that you would need a different essay to explain these concepts to people who come to your topic with dissimilar word associations or lack of experience.
-Reader
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