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I have often read reference and the paper on the Universe of Universes but my mind tended to just pass it by without much thought.
So I reread paper 12 in an effort to try to figure out what that universe is the authors are singling out among the universes and it still was not made clear.
So there must be a different meaning for “The Universe of Universes”
So here it is based on the first sentence in paper 12:
“(128.1) 12:0.1 THE immensity of the far-flung creation of the Universal Father is utterly beyond the grasp of finite imagination; the enormousness of the master universe staggers the concept of even my order of being. ”The paper goes on to describe more detail about the whole of creation.
So this universe that I was looking for to be singled out cannot be Paradise, Havona, any or all of the Super Universes or any of the island universes out beyond the Super Universes or any one universe anywhere.
It must be more like all of the universes as a whole within the Master Universe. In other words, the Universe of (of, meaning from Webster: used as a function word to indicate belonging or possessive relationship) Universes. All of the universes within the Master Universe. Of is in this case a key word. Stated another way: The Universe (The Master Universe) of Universes (all of the universes within the Master Universe). Make any sense? Cant figure a better way to say it.On a different note and
More from paper 12:I clipped these quotes from the papers for one reason, to highlight the authors use of the word “now” and a couple other words to indicate the present in order to try to make a point of what I find to be very curious about what the authors are trying to get us to understand. Bear with me please.
(130.1) 12:1.15 These activities undoubtedly presage the organization of the material creations of the second outer space level of the master universe.
(131.2) 12:2.5A greater creation of the future is in process of formation.
(133.8) 12:4.6 In outer space the force organizers are apparently responsible for the production of the gigantic universe wheels which are now in process of stellar evolution,
12:3.8 [Part I]
1. Physical Gravity. Having formulated an estimate of the summation of the entire physical-gravity capacity of the grand universe, they have laboriously effected a comparison of this finding with the estimated total of absolute gravity presence now operative.
12:3.9 [Part IIf these findings are dependable, we may conclude that the universes now evolving in outer space are at the present time wholly nonspiritual.
12:3.10This would suggest the possibility that mind activities are involved in connection with the observable physical activities now in progress throughout the realms of outer space.
12:4.2Who, or what, is really responsible for the gigantic activities of force-energy transmutations now in progress out beyond the borders of the present seven superuniverses?
12:4.6 [Part I]
In outer space the force organizers are apparently responsible for the production of the gigantic universe wheels which are now in process of stellar evolution,
12:8.2 [Part IAll original force-energy proceeds from Paradise, and the matter for the making of untold universes now circulates throughout the master universe in the form of a supergravity presence which constitutes the force-charge of pervaded space.Papaer 12 also gets deep into time, space and how we perceive it.
from (135.5) 12:5.6 There are three different levels of time cognizance:
(135.6) 12:5.7 1. Mind-perceived time — consciousness of sequence, motion, and a sense of duration.(135.7) 12:5.8 2. Spirit-perceived time — insight into motion Godward and the awareness of the motion of ascent to levels of increasing divinity.
(135.8) 12:5.9 3. Personality creates a unique time sense out of insight into Reality plus a consciousness of presence and an awareness of duration.
Which perspective do you think the authors are coming from when they write about what is happening “now” in these distance universes? How should we think about it?
How could our human brains reconcile a statement about what is happening “now” in far distant places of the Master Universe when these places are millions if not billions of light years away from us and in regard to our perception of time as motion, it is by those photons that have traveled the great distances that tell us that what we perceive based on Mind-preceived time may not be what the authors mean when they talk about events out there like it is in the present.
In other words, what the authors indicate as happening “now” to us it is in the distant past.
Am I making any sense?
Anyone else find this most curious?am I missing the point?
Gene…don’t know what you might be missing but you ask complex questions which can easily cause confusions to me as well.
First, regarding time….forget the passage of time by distance…I think it irrelevant to the fact of the simultaneous reality of ‘now’ in time universally…all of time and space share each tick and tock of the clock of sequential moments of time. And for Deity and those Havona beings at the centers of the gravity circuits there is an awareness of ‘now’ throughout all of time and space…consider reflectivity as an example. ‘Now’ is not dependent on where. We share the now with those and that on the extreme oppositional edge of time and space.
Consider our world where time is unitized into time zones where sunrise and sunset appear to be different times but when a stone falls from a mountain or a fish jumps from the river (any mountain and any river), it happens at the same moment in time around the entire world does it not? The time differential imposed by distance is irrelevant to the simultaneous moment shared in time by a specific event at a specific location. All of time and space shares such simutaniety where distance is meaningless. So what happens here and now, is recorded now in Havona…and can even be reflected to somewhere else right now too. Not everything is limited by or subject to the time-distance effect we are so constrained by.
I think it is an important concept to acknowledge….the now exists everywhere in the same instant of now…tick, tock, tick, tock.
So far in my studies, I think the Master Universe and the Universe of Universes is the same reality described in two ways – the singular and the multiple. The Master Universe is multi-faceted but specific in scale/scope we are taught with the endless potential for growth in size…it resides within infinity but is not itself infinite. The universes within The Universe of Universes are distinct from one another in form, function, and potential but are nonetheless within an integrated Universe – The Master Universe.
Just my own perspective and opinion….
So far in my studies, I think the Master Universe and the Universe of Universes is the same reality described in two ways – the singular and the multiple. The Master Universe is multi-faceted but specific in scale/scope we are taught with the endless potential for growth in size…it resides within infinity but is not itself infinite. The universes within The Universe of Universes are distinct from one another in form, function, and potential but are nonetheless within an integrated Universe – The Master Universe.
I always thought the universe of universes is the Grand Universe. The Master Universe includes the four uninhabited outer space zones which are not yet considered universes, I don’t think.
Great analogy on the “now” idea Brad.
so ideas about just what The Universe of Universes encompasses does tend to differ, it’s not just me. But we can agree that there is not just one Universe being singled out or identified among many?
Interesting Bonita….the Grand Universe is the populated universes as I recall and the Master Universe is the totality of all organized space and I think the universe of universes is also the totality but specifies its constituent parts…including the outer space levels.
Investigating…..
Interesting Bonita….the Grand Universe is the populated universes as I recall and the Master Universe is the totality of all organized space and I think the universe of universes is also the totality but specifies its constituent parts…including the outer space levels. Investigating…..
cant find the quote but the authors relate studies done in regard to mind and spirit presence in the 4 outer creations and it is minimal. Maybe part of the confusion or a reason to limit the Universe of Universes to the Grand Universe.
rethinking your “now” analogy it’s almost a thought that allows the mind to grasp what transcending time could be like. We can measure distance and light speed to estimate distance, time or age but at the same time realize a “now” event happening out there now. All while being stuck in time and space. Interesting. The question then is: what astronomers observe out there – is it really happening now? Hard to wrap my mind around.
Which perspective do you think the authors are coming from when they write about what is happening “now” in these distance universes? How should we think about it?
I always thought when they’re talking about outer space levels, they’re referring to the present universe age. At least the first level of outer space that is, since there are four.
rethinking your “now” analogy it’s almost a thought that allows the mind to grasp what transcending time could be like. We can measure distance and light speed to estimate distance, time or age but at the same time realize a “now” event happening out there now. All while being stuck in time and space. Interesting. The question then is: what astronomers observe out there – is it really happening now? Hard to wrap my mind around.
No….both are true (simultaneously….hahaha). Things happen in the moment of now universally but observation is time-sensitive – that which is seen by light/time transmission is in our past….but right now both our sun and the sun a million light years away are each transmitting light in the moment. Observation in-time requires the time effects of observation…which is not the same issue at all.
Not my bailiwick but time has always been fascinating to me too!
The transcendence of time is another issue as well….way beyond my pay grade! How does the infinite and eternal God know what’s going to happen when it hasn’t happened yet and there is no predetermined or fated outcomes in the potentials created and realized in time which are determined by trillions of trillions of free will creature decisions not yet decided…or even born yet?
Brain hurts again…..
Some light reading…..
https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/time-metaphysics-of/v-2
Perhaps the most important dispute in the metaphysics of time is over the passage of time. There are two basic metaphysical theories of time in this dispute. There is the A-theory of time, according to which the common-sense distinction between the past, present and future reflects a real ontological distinction, and time is dynamic: what was future, is now present and will be past. Then there is the B-theory of time, according to which there is no ontological distinction between past, present and future. The fact that we draw this distinction in ordinary life is a reflection of our perspective on temporal reality, rather than a reflection of the nature of time itself. A corollary of denying that there is a distinction between past, present and future is that time is not dynamic in the way just described. The A-theory is also variously referred to as the tensed theory, or the dynamic theory of time. The B-theory is also referred to as the tenseless theory, or the static, or block universe theory of time.
Because the two theories about time are mutually exclusive, and are also thought to exhaust the possible range of metaphysical theories of time, arguments in favour of one theory often take the form of arguments against the other theory.
Me here: Oh dear…but what if both theories are right….and not mutually exclusive at all? Think on that.
Some light reading….. https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/time-metaphysics-of/v-2 Perhaps the most important dispute in the metaphysics of time is over the passage of time. There are two basic metaphysical theories of time in this dispute. There is the A-theory of time, according to which the common-sense distinction between the past, present and future reflects a real ontological distinction, and time is dynamic: what was future, is now present and will be past. Then there is the B-theory of time, according to which there is no ontological distinction between past, present and future. The fact that we draw this distinction in ordinary life is a reflection of our perspective on temporal reality, rather than a reflection of the nature of time itself. A corollary of denying that there is a distinction between past, present and future is that time is not dynamic in the way just described. The A-theory is also variously referred to as the tensed theory, or the dynamic theory of time. The B-theory is also referred to as the tenseless theory, or the static, or block universe theory of time. Because the two theories about time are mutually exclusive, and are also thought to exhaust the possible range of metaphysical theories of time, arguments in favour of one theory often take the form of arguments against the other theory. Me here: Oh dear…but what if both theories are right….and not mutually exclusive at all? Think on that.
good read, I’ve never heard about those theories before but all suggest that the present is in “motion” as past and future dominate completely – the present happens so fast it may not even be measurable with exception of consciousness of motion.
from paper 11:9 Paradise is the universal headquarters of all personality activities and the source-center of all force-space and energy manifestations. Everything which has been, now is, or is yet to be, has come, now comes, or will come forth from this central abiding place of the eternal Gods. Paradise is the center of all crea- tion, the source of all energies, and the place of primal origin of all personalities.
ya think that the Trinity as residents as well as the central isle itself have a grasp on past present and future? I think it is all one on Paradise, where motion don’t happen.
Also consider how the authors describe space respiration – it is most certainly a “now” event. No mention of a 14 billion year lag time because of the distance of the 4th outer space level to Paradise.
And then there is this from paper 12:3 about universal gravity:
All forms of force-energy—material, mindal, or spiritual—are alike subject to those grasps, those universal presences, which we call gravity. Personality also is responsive to gravity—to the Father’s exclusive circuit; but though this circuit is exclusive to the Father, he is not excluded from the other circuits; the Universal Father is infinite and acts over all four absolute-gravity circuits in the master universe:
1. The Personality Gravity of the Universal Father.
2. The Spirit Gravity of the Eternal Son.
3. The Mind Gravity of the Conjoint Actor.
4. The Cosmic Gravity of the Isle of Paradise.back up to the Absolute or better yet even the I AM and all of the above are one, no distinction. When made manifest in finite creation they branch out into four flavors of inescapable gravity. Well almost, I believe that our free will allows us to reject Spirit gravity – however, when caught in the pull of any or all four, no matter where in creation you may be, it is a “now” event – maybe even instantaneous.
paper 12 is about unity I believe. Expressed as universe, or the universe of Universes
More about motion on Paradise: the way I understand it is that walking won’t get you anywhere, motion is by volition. Now that will be a fun skill to develop eh?
Paper 118 is helpful – a very good read indeed – and I wasn’t kidding when I suggested Theory A and Theory B above are not mutually exclusive afterall – both are godless scientific theories without the unifying fact and effect of God – the eternal and the temporal bound by the every-whereness presence of “the universe emergence of experiential Deity”. Note in the Paper the importance of the time-unit perspective to the moment of ‘now’.
1. Time and Eternity
118:1.1 (1295.1) It is helpful to man’s cosmic orientation to attain all possible comprehension of Deity’s relation to the cosmos. While absolute Deity is eternal in nature, the Gods are related to time as an experience in eternity. In the evolutionary universes eternity is temporal everlastingness — the everlasting now.
118:1.9 (1296.1) On the levels of the infinite and the absolute the moment of the present contains all of the past as well as all of the future. I AM signifies also I WAS and I WILL BE. And this represents our best concept of eternity and the eternal.
118:1.10 (1296.2) On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter. But the Universal Father, through the indwelling Thought Adjuster, is not thus limited in awareness but can also know of, and participate in, every temporal struggle with the problems of the creature ascent from animallike to Godlike levels of existence.
118:2.3 (1296.5) God the Supreme may not be a demonstration of the time-space omnipresence of Deity, but he is literally a manifestation of divine ubiquity. Between the spiritual presence of the Creator and the material manifestations of creation there exists a vast domain of the ubiquitous becoming — the universe emergence of evolutionary Deity.
Paper 118 is helpful – a very good read indeed – and I wasn’t kidding when I suggested Theory A and Theory B above are not mutually exclusive afterall – both are godless scientific theories without the unifying fact and effect of God – the eternal and the temporal bound by the every-whereness presence of “the universe emergence of experiential Deity”. Note in the Paper the importance of the time-unit perspective to the moment of ‘now’. 1. Time and Eternity 118:1.1 (1295.1) It is helpful to man’s cosmic orientation to attain all possible comprehension of Deity’s relation to the cosmos. While absolute Deity is eternal in nature, the Gods are related to time as an experience in eternity. In the evolutionary universes eternity is temporal everlastingness — the everlasting now. 118:1.9 (1296.1) On the levels of the infinite and the absolute the moment of the present contains all of the past as well as all of the future. I AM signifies also I WAS and I WILL BE. And this represents our best concept of eternity and the eternal. 118:1.10 (1296.2) On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter. But the Universal Father, through the indwelling Thought Adjuster, is not thus limited in awareness but can also know of, and participate in, every temporal struggle with the problems of the creature ascent from animallike to Godlike levels of existence. 118:2.3 (1296.5) God the Supreme may not be a demonstration of the time-space omnipresence of Deity, but he is literally a manifestation of divine ubiquity. Between the spiritual presence of the Creator and the material manifestations of creation there exists a vast domain of the ubiquitous becoming — the universe emergence of evolutionary Deity.
Very good read. Cosmic orientation happens.
while re-reading paper 18 I found this quote that takes me back to trying to figure out what The Universe of Universes” really is. And there is a connection to the Ancients of days.
18:3.4 “The Ancients of Days were all trinitized at the same time. They represent the beginning of the personality records of the universe of universes, hence their name—Ancients of Days. When you reach Paradise and search the written rec- ords of the beginning of things, you will find that the first entry appearing in the personality section is the recital of the trinitization of these twenty-one Ancients of Days”
Does this suggest that there are not any personalities outside of the Grand Universe??
Clipped from paper 12: “As far as we know, no material beings on the order of humans, no angels or other spirit creatures, exist in this outer ring of nebulae, suns, and planets. This distant domain is beyond the jurisdiction and administration of the superuniverse governments”
possibly Bonitas idea that the Grand Universe is what is referred to as The Universe of Universes?
possibly the quote below gives a hint as to the difficulties with understanding time and space, distance, age, events as a progression etc. Possibly the exception highlighted below seems to me to say that there are limits to what our intellect can comprehend about it, possibly because mind is more than material?
what do you think this exception means?
12:8 “Though it is hardly possible for the mortal mind to comprehend the seven levels of relative cosmic reality, the human intellect should be able to grasp much of the meaning of three functioning levels of finite reality:
1. Matter. Organized energy which is subject to linear gravity except as it is modified by motion and conditioned by mind”
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