Can the mind exist without a material host?

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  • #8239
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    We won’t hear the adjusters voice until we are 1st circlers. But even when we fuse we will always have a alter-ego.

    So, you’re saying that the Adjuster will always seem like an alter ego even after fusion?  I guess it depends on how you define alter ego.

    Dialogue, fellowship, communion, prayer and worship is between two persons.  My feeling is that the alter ego is a tool used by the finite material mind.  This tool is used as a mechanism, a receptacle, for the inner awareness of “other-than-self” present within every mind endowed with the Holy Spirit. This other-than-self is generally unknown and the alter ego approach makes it knowable.  Alter egos tend to have the characteristics the individual deems to be most useful and comfortable to their psyche.  As the psyche progresses in the circles, the alter ego begins to take on a higher character, always ahead and above the praying personality.

    The alter ego is supposed to evolve but the finite material mind is not necessarily capable of determining what level of evolution it is in, just like it cannot tell what psychic circle it is in.  Anywhere along the continuum, persons might misconstrue their inner conversations with the alter ego as coming from a more evolved state than it actually is.  Hence the mistake of thinking eruptions from the subconscious are divine emanations from the superconsious.  It’s a delicate matter which is why a certain amount of indifference to the process makes sense.

    Anyway, sorry Midi for getting off topic.  Waiting for your update post.

    #8243
    Avatar
    TUB
    Participant

    I think its possible to have a consciousness of the reality of the Father in Paradise during worship. I think that cosmic consciousness has some sort of reflective ability to penetrate paradise and sense his reality and the reality of Deity. “The adjuster is the window”.

    #8244
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    I think its possible to have a consciousness of the reality of the Father in Paradise during worship. I think that cosmic consciousness has some sort of reflective ability to penetrate paradise and sense his reality and the reality of Deity. “The adjuster is the window”.

    I don’t think the finite material mind can ever become conscious of worship. Worship is an experience of the soul and consciousness of it depends on soul consciousness.  Soul consciousness is dependent upon soul growth and soul growth is dependent to psychic circle mastery.  It has nothing to do with reflectivity, it is all about the soul.  Worship is conducted by the Thought Adjuster and the closer the soul is to consciousness of the Adjuster, the more conscious it becomes of worship.

    p66:3-4 5:3.7-8 Sincere worship connotes the mobilization of all the powers of the human personality under the dominance of the evolving soul and subject to the divine directionization of the associated Thought Adjuster. The mind of material limitations can never become highly conscious of the real significance of true worship. Man’s realization of the reality of the worship experience is chiefly determined by the developmental status of his evolving immortal soul. . . . The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul.

    #8251
    Avatar
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Anyway, sorry Midi for getting off topic. Waiting for your update post.

    You are actually not off topic because the response which  Bonita gave earlier, and TUB re-posted, using the following UB quote: [< post-edit]

    (997.5) 91:3.7 Enlightened prayer must recognize not only an external and personal God but also an internal and impersonal Divinity, the indwelling Adjuster. It is altogether fitting that man, when he prays, should strive to grasp the concept of the Universal Father on Paradise; but the more effective technique for most practical purposes will be to revert to the concept of a near-by alter ego, just as the primitive mind was wont to do, and then to recognize that the idea of this alter ego has evolved from a mere fiction to the truth of God’s indwelling mortal man in the factual presence of the Adjuster so that man can talk face to face, as it were, with a real and genuine and divine alter ego that indwells him and is the very presence and essence of the living God, the Universal Father. 

    Where in the quote, that which I have highlighted in “red” and underlined, actually indicates that when the UB refers to “alter ego” it is referring to the Thought Adjuster, and by default the “ego” would be associated to the mortal or individual consciousness.

     >

    Just a suggestion Bonita, when quoting a section of a post, the editor places that in the box as an indented segment, by placing the cursor at the end of the quoted selection, and you press the  (in the edit function box) again, it will move the indent back out to the left.  This way it will segregate your comments from the quoted selection.  I mention this because some times I can not tell where the selected quote ends.

    Again, Thanks to all.

    #8326
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Where in the quote, that which I have highlighted in “red” and underlined, actually indicates that when the UB refers to “alter ego” it is referring to the Thought Adjuster, and by default the “ego” would be associated to the mortal or individual consciousness.

    Yes, the alter ego is the “other-than-self” presence that every indwelt individual senses or feels within them.  Self-consciousness is not possible without other-than-self consciousness.  Personality is relational; an isolated personality is an extinct personality.  Therefore, once becoming self-conscious the recognition of otherness within the mind is inevitable (91:01).  Some people ignore this otherness and some people embrace it.  But most people are, at times, at odds with it, hence the duality problem we all face. Which ego will win?  The self-ego or the divine alter-ego?

    #8332
    Brooklyn_born
    Brooklyn_born
    Participant
    “…an isolated personality is an extinct personality.
    Do you think personality ever could come out of ‘extinction’ if it regains self-consciousness? Also do you recommend any psychiatry books for the general public that could enhance one’s understanding of personality?

    BB

    #8333
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Do you think personality ever could come out of ‘extinction’ if it regains self-consciousness?

    No, once extinct, forever extinct.  But you should realize that the personality is absorbed into the Supreme.  It’s the identity of the personality that is never again expressed. (2:3.4)

    Also do you recommend any psychiatry books for the general public that could enhance one’s understanding of personality?

    No.  Neither psychiatry nor psychology will help you understand personality.  Psychiatry is the study of human behavior resulting from thoughts, emotions and feelings.  Personality is none of those things. All of those things are part of mind. Don’t confuse character and personality.  They are not the same thing.   Psychology is about character, not personality.

    Personality is an individual pattern from the Paradise Father applied to an energy system. It represents the arrangement of those energies.(0:6.12; 42:12.2) The personality also never changes (0:5.11), once a certain arrangement of energies is created, that specific arrangement remains the same regardless of the energy level it is manifested.  It is the character which changes, not the personality (140:4.8).  Our goal is perfection of character. Our personalities, being direct from the Father, are already perfect patterns.

    #8334
    Brooklyn_born
    Brooklyn_born
    Participant

    No, once extinct, forever extinct. But you should realize that the personality is absorbed into the Supreme. It’s the identity of the personality that is never again expressed. (2:3.4)

    No. Neither psychiatry nor psychology will help you understand personality. Psychiatry is the study of human behavior resulting from thoughts, emotions and feelings. Personality is none of those things. All of those things are part of mind. Don’t confuse character and personality. They are not the same thing. Psychology is about character, not personality. Personality is an individual pattern from the Paradise Father applied to an energy system. It represents the arrangement of those energies.(0:6.12; 42:12.2) The personality also never changes (0:5.11), once a certain arrangement of energies is created, that specific arrangement remains the same regardless of the energy level it is manifested. It is the character which changes, not the personality (140:4.8). Our goal is perfection of character. Our personalities, being direct from the Father, are already perfect patterns.

     

    Understood. Thanks.

     

    BB

    #8335
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    You’re welcome.  I don’t know if this is something that will help you or not.  Years ago I compiled a paraphrased list of descriptions of personality from Paper 112.  I don’t have time right now to look up all the page numbers, but you’ll recognize them.

    What is Personality  (Taken from Paper 112)

    1. There is is one part of you that remains absolutely unaltered, and that is personality-permanence in the presence of change.
    2. Personality may be  bestowed upon any living energy system which includes mind or spirit.
    3. When personality is bestowed upon evolutionary material creatures, it causes spirit to strive for the mastery of energy-matter through the mediation of mind.
    4. Personality, while devoid of identity, can unify the identity of any living energy system.
    5. Personality may survive mortal death with identity in the surviving soul.  The Adjuster and the personality are changeless; the relationship between them (in the soul) is nothing but change, continuing evolution; and if this change or growth ceased, the soul would cease.
    6. Personality can make a gift to God-dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God.
    7. Personality is characterized by morality-awareness of relativity in its relationships with other persons.  It discerns conduct levels and choosingly discriminates between them.
    8. Personality is unique in time and space, in eternity and on Paradise.  There are no duplicates; it is unique in relation to God.
    9. Personality responds directly to other personality presence.
    10. The type of personality bestowed upon Urantia mortals has a potentiality of seven dimensions of self-expression or person-realization.
    11. The finite dimensions of personality have to do with cosmic length, depth and breadth.  Length=meaning, Depth=value, Breadth=insight.  Insight means the capacity to experience unchallengeable consciousness of cosmic reality.
    12. The personality imparts value of identity and meanings of continuity to this organismal-environmental association.
    13. It is through the mediation of mind that the organism (self) and the environment establish meaningful contact.  The ability and willingness of the organism to make such significant contacts with environment (response to a drive) represents the attitude of the whole personality.
    14. Personality cannot perform in isolation.  Man is dominated by the craving of belongingness.
    15. Personality unifies all factors of reality as well as coordinates relationships.  Three or more relationships constitute a system.  In a cosmic system the individual members are not connected with each other except in relation to the whole.
    16. In the human organism the summation of its parts constitutes selfhood-individuality-but such a process has nothing whatever to do with personality, which is the unifier of all these factors as related to cosmic realities.
    17. In the human system it is the personality which unifies all activities and in turn imparts the qualities of identity and creativity.
    #8336
    Brooklyn_born
    Brooklyn_born
    Participant

     

    You’re welcome. I don’t know if this is something that will help you or not. Years ago I compiled a paraphrased list of descriptions of personality from Paper 112. I don’t have time right now to look up all the page numbers, but you’ll recognize them. What is Personality (Taken from Paper 112)
    There is is one part of you that remains absolutely unaltered, and that is personality-permanence in the presence of change.
    Personality may be bestowed upon any living energy system which includes mind or spirit.
    When personality is bestowed upon evolutionary material creatures, it causes spirit to strive for the mastery of energy-matter through the mediation of mind.
    Personality, while devoid of identity, can unify the identity of any living energy system.
    Personality may survive mortal death with identity in the surviving soul. The Adjuster and the personality are changeless; the relationship between them (in the soul) is nothing but change, continuing evolution; and if this change or growth ceased, the soul would cease.
    Personality can make a gift to God-dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God.
    Personality is characterized by morality-awareness of relativity in its relationships with other persons. It discerns conduct levels and choosingly discriminates between them.
    Personality is unique in time and space, in eternity and on Paradise. There are no duplicates; it is unique in relation to God.
    Personality responds directly to other personality presence.
    The type of personality bestowed upon Urantia mortals has a potentiality of seven dimensions of self-expression or person-realization.
    The finite dimensions of personality have to do with cosmic length, depth and breadth. Length=meaning, Depth=value, Breadth=insight. Insight means the capacity to experience unchallengeable consciousness of cosmic reality.
    The personality imparts value of identity and meanings of continuity to this organismal-environmental association.
    It is through the mediation of mind that the organism (self) and the environment establish meaningful contact. The ability and willingness of the organism to make such significant contacts with environment (response to a drive) represents the attitude of the whole personality.
    Personality cannot perform in isolation. Man is dominated by the craving of belongingness.
    Personality unifies all factors of reality as well as coordinates relationships. Three or more relationships constitute a system. In a cosmic system the individual members are not connected with each other except in relation to the whole.
    In the human organism the summation of its parts constitutes selfhood-individuality-but such a process has nothing whatever to do with personality, which is the unifier of all these factors as related to cosmic realities.
    In the human system it is the personality which unifies all activities and in turn imparts the qualities of identity and creativity.

     

    Definitely makes it  easier than shuffling back and forth through TUB.  Much appreciated.

     

    BB

    #46562
    richsachs
    richsachs
    Participant

    more importantly very few children were ever destroyed after having once been suckled—maternal affection is too strong.

    68:6.9 (770.6) Many races learned the technique of abortion, and this practice became very common after the establishment of the taboo on childbirth among the unmarried. It was long the custom for a maiden to kill her offspring, but among more civilized groups these illegitimate children became the wards of the girl’s mother. Many primitive clans were virtually exterminated by the practice of both abortion and infanticide. But regardless of the dictates of the mores, very few children were ever destroyed after having once been suckled—maternal affection is too strong.

    Human mind is a temporary intellect system on loan for use in this material life. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will. It is with this mind and through this mind you choose to accept or reject the career path to eternal life while on earth. The mind is not the seat of the spiritual nature, but is the gateway thereto, the gateway to the soul. The morontia soul and morontia mind. The soul – where resides the spiritual nature which must recognize truth and respond to the spiritual appeal of Jesus’ gospel in order to achieve true character transformations, if you want to achieve those transformations. TUB tells us a lot of people are afraid being transformed. Afraid to be changed. Where do you suppose the fear resides? In the human mind. The human mind, if you allow it, plays all kinds of tricks of reasoning and sophistries against the gospel of Jesus, arguing there is no proof, no way to validate the heavenly and minded hosts of the universes, nor validate the work of one’s TA in spiritizing one’s supernal ideals and concepts to render them available in the human mind as to constitute them the actual human complement made ready for action of the Spirit of Truth, the new teacher of truth who along with our Father is able to live in the soul of each person and who loves them and who makes that love real in human experience, admonishing us to demonstrate fatherly/brotherly love by us loving one another, as Jesus loves us. It is possible to make the mistake of hearing Jesus’ teachings with the mind, yet failing to comprehend the meanings in your heart, as well as refusing act upon what you know. We have the lowest mind of all. We are told the lower types of mind, such as ours, cannot discover the higher universe mind associated with any universe phenomena. Yet the seraphim teach that if your mind does not serve you well, you can exchange it for the mind of Jesus. At every crossroad in the forward struggle, the SoT will always speak saying, This is the way. The mind is the arena of choice.

    When the development of the intellectual nature proceeds faster than that of the spiritual, such a situation renders communication with the Thought Adjuster both difficult and dangerous. Likewise, overspiritual development tends to produce a fanatical and perverted interpretation of the spirit leadings of the divine indweller. Lack of spiritual capacity makes it very difficult to transmit to such a material intellect the spiritual truths resident in the higher superconsciousness. It is to the mind of perfect poise, housed in a body of clean habits, stabilized neural energies, and balanced chemical function — when the physical, mental, and spiritual powers are in triune harmony of development — that a maximum of light and truth can be imparted with a minimum of temporal danger or risk to the real welfare of such a being. By such a balanced growth does man ascend the circles of planetary progression one by one, from the seventh to the first.
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