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Can the mind exist without a material host?
The question here “can the mind exist without a material host?” could possibly be answered in the Urantia Book, but since it is difficult to define what the soul is, and after death, the Book indicates that the physical attributes are, to some degree, retained by an angel and the Thought Adjuster retains what could be considered as a soul, assuming that this person or personality has retained a union with the T.A., the question moves to a spiritual question, in that spirit is defined as invisible to the eye, so can this spirit mind, or identity retain a consciousness without a physical body?
Now there are the Midwayer’s who it is said, can make a physical appearance, and would also imply a morontia type of body, as we have been told that this type of body was used by Jesus to make His appearance after His resurrection, or after having died, but what would retain Jesus’ mind or personality, in an eternal type of environment? Then could we ask, how does a morontia body appear in material form, if there is no assumed physical structure behind its consciousness or mind.
Then one, might say that this spirit mind is energy, which could be assumed to have some kind of vessel or force field to retain the thought of mind or consciousness; but then can these energy identities communicate with other like kinship, if so how would this be manifested as we might be able to compare this to what we know about physics today, also by using our imagination to think outside of a box, so to speak.
If we assume that a physical host is required to retain a mind and that there are other entities, be they spiritual or not and if they are able to maintain observation of our physical realm, the closest probability would be an alternate dimension which is so close to our own that would make it seem that there might be a very small time difference between one dimension and another, but as we currently understand time, these spirits minds or identities would only be able to know what we did if they are behind in time, or would know what we will do, if they are ahead of us in time. But would this not cause a problem with communication between dimensions? Or, is it possible that these alternate entities can share our vessels and minds, but then there is the question of whether this alternate entity can exist outside of a material body, where, if possible, how do they get from one place to another without some container or retainer to keep this energy together between vessels.
We also have been told that the T.A. does not enter the body or mind until a certain point of age or for those who do not follow this format, until either requested or somehow received; which then must pose the question of how this is possible, and must we rely on faith alone that this is so, or the way it is? Does the Urantia Book give us any clue as to the science by which this can be understood, or explained, otherwise even the fact that the Urantia Book exists, cannot be validated to any degree, or must be assumed as a work of fiction, much like the Bible or the Qur’an; where, it is left up to us to translate into spiritual thought what is truth and what is not, which may result in enumerable interpretations or understanding?
So, can we, through our own minds, validate that spirit entities exist within our minds, who can aid us or who make us who we are?
Human mind is a temporary intellect system on loan for use in this material life. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will. It is with this mind and through this mind you choose to accept or reject the career path to eternal life while on earth. The mind is not the seat of the spiritual nature, but is the gateway thereto, the gateway to the soul. The morontia soul and morontia mind. The soul – where resides the spiritual nature which must recognize truth and respond to the spiritual appeal of Jesus’ gospel in order to achieve true character transformations, if you want to achieve those transformations.
TUB tells us a lot of people are afraid being transformed. Afraid to be changed. Where do you suppose the fear resides? In the human mind. The human mind, if you allow it, plays all kinds of tricks of reasoning and sophistries against the gospel of Jesus, arguing there is no proof, no way to validate the heavenly and minded hosts of the universes, nor validate the work of one’s TA in spiritizing one’s supernal ideals and concepts to render them available in the human mind as to constitute them the actual human complement made ready for action of the Spirit of Truth, the new teacher of truth who along with our Father is able to live in the soul of each person and who loves them and who makes that love real in human experience, admonishing us to demonstrate fatherly/brotherly love by us loving one another, as Jesus loves us.
It is possible to make the mistake of hearing Jesus’ teachings with the mind, yet failing to comprehend the meanings in your heart, as well as refusing act upon what you know.
We have the lowest mind of all. We are told the lower types of mind, such as ours, cannot discover the higher universe mind associated with any universe phenomena. Yet the seraphim teach that if your mind does not serve you well, you can exchange it for the mind of Jesus. At every crossroad in the forward struggle, the SoT will always speak saying, This is the way. The mind is the arena of choice.
When the development of the intellectual nature proceeds faster than that of the spiritual, such a situation renders communication with the Thought Adjuster both difficult and dangerous. Likewise, overspiritual development tends to produce a fanatical and perverted interpretation of the spirit leadings of the divine indweller. Lack of spiritual capacity makes it very difficult to transmit to such a material intellect the spiritual truths resident in the higher superconsciousness. It is to the mind of perfect poise, housed in a body of clean habits, stabilized neural energies, and balanced chemical function — when the physical, mental, and spiritual powers are in triune harmony of development — that a maximum of light and truth can be imparted with a minimum of temporal danger or risk to the real welfare of such a being. By such a balanced growth does man ascend the circles of planetary progression one by one, from the seventh to the first.Midi, this is a fascinating topic, one which I have pondered on for some time. Thanks for posting it!
Based on my understanding, depending on its intellect, mind yields either to material or spiritual drawing power. A material-mind cannot survive death, as its physical host is not designed to endure in perpetuity. Yet that does not mean mind ceases to persist, postmortem? I believe cessation of material-mind is cessation of mind housed in a material body and not the dissolution of mind, hence, the term “material-mind.” TA takes possession of mind by transcribing mind onto itself irrespective of survival outcome.
So it begs the question: is the essence of who we are or the core of our being, “mind?” I believe when stripped of all these cosmic layers (eg., personality, Morontia, spirit, pure spirit) we are mind.
BB
I do not believe Mind needs a material host to exist, though it would need one to interact, in the literal sense, with the material plane. So without a material host, mind cannot exist on the material plane. But mind is transcribed onto TA and, if fails to survive on the monrontia plane, moves to the prepersonal levels of existence in Divinington as a part of TA .
BB
I would define soul as the morontial casing for the mind. Basically it is the “Brain” organ for the mind at the Morontial level.
BB
the Book indicates that the physical attributes are, to some degree, retained by an angel and the Thought Adjuster retains what could be considered as a soul, assuming that this person or personality has retained a union with the T.A.,
I’m confused. What does this mean? What physical attributes are you speaking of? And what do you mean by retaining a union with the T.A.?
The angels have custody of the soul after death and the Adjusters have custody of mortal memory which contains a duplicate transcript of the spiritual values and morontia meanings attained by the indwelt mind.
It might be helpful to remember that mind is a ministry which is applied to an energy system. Even in its absolute form, mind is inseparable from the personality of God. There are no personalities of pure mind alone. Impersonal mind is the cosmic mind, but that mind has its origins in a Person, the Third Person of Deity. Even mechanical mind without personality association requires an energy system in order to function.
Mara I think that quote you provided answers your question quite nicely. If people could set up this triune harmony in their mind they could experience ministry from God. Otherwise ministry can be dangerous or nearly impossible. People who have the 4th epochal revelation right now often times want to ignore facts and material things. People who don’t pay any attention to spiritual matters often have an overly material consciousness. We need to mix that factual consciousness with our spiritual consciousness to set up that triune harmony so that the adjuster can work within our consciousness.
It is possible to make the mistake of hearing Jesus’ teachings with the mind, yet failing to comprehend the meanings in your heart, as well as refusing act upon what you know.
I think this is a good question. I think what happens is, our preconceived notions, opinions and prejudices can act as a diaphragm in the mind, so that when God does minister to us it hits that diaphragm and we interpret Gods ministry as that diaphragm, because we feel that diaphragm rattle around when Gods ministry hits it. I think this is part of the danger that the authors refer to, someone can go really far astray. I think this easily can happen in overly spiritual minds. But the adjuster and SOT don’t actually dialogue with us so there isn’t a literal conversation going on even when our mind is in harmony.
But the adjuster and SOT don’t actually dialogue with us so there isn’t a literal conversation going on even when our mind is in harmony.
If there is no conversation, then why did Jesus insist on having, “just a little talk with my Father in heaven”? Do you think Jesus was having only a one-way conversation with his Father?
91:1.4 Prayer is only monologuous in the most primitive type of mind. It early becomes a dialogue and rapidly expands to the level of group worship.
This whole section is talking about primitive prayer Bonita. TUB tells us to take great caution in discouraging people from their primitive forms of prayer so perhaps this is a subject I should avoid completely. As it requires a delicate touch that I don’t have. I think Jesus was communing with his Father, but not having a literal back and forth chit-chat. The authors of TUB switch back and forth between talking about True Prayer and just merely prayer. Its up to us to discern which form of prayer they are talking about, they don’t always make it easy though. Its the same with religion. Sometimes the authors are talking about mere evolutionary religion and sometimes they are talking about True Religion. But they don’t always directly tell you which one they are talking about in a matter of fact way.
1. Primitive Prayer
(994.6) 91:1.1 The function of early evolutionary religion is to conserve and augment the essential social, moral, and spiritual values which are slowly taking form. This mission of religion is not consciously observed by mankind, but it is chiefly effected by the function of prayer. The practice of prayer represents the unintended, but nonetheless personal and collective, effort of any group to secure (to actualize) this conservation of higher values. But for the safeguarding of prayer, all holy days would speedily revert to the status of mere holidays.
(995.1) 91:1.2 Religion and its agencies, the chief of which is prayer, are allied only with those values which have general social recognition, group approval. Therefore, when primitive man attempted to gratify his baser emotions or to achieve unmitigated selfish ambitions, he was deprived of the consolation of religion and the assistance of prayer. If the individual sought to accomplish anything antisocial, he was obliged to seek the aid of nonreligious magic, resort to sorcerers, and thus be deprived of the assistance of prayer. Prayer, therefore, very early became a mighty promoter of social evolution, moral progress, and spiritual attainment.
(995.2) 91:1.3 But the primitive mind was neither logical nor consistent. Early men did not perceive that material things were not the province of prayer. These simple-minded souls reasoned that food, shelter, rain, game, and other material goods enhanced the social welfare, and therefore they began to pray for these physical blessings. While this constituted a perversion of prayer, it encouraged the effort to realize these material objectives by social and ethical actions. Such a prostitution of prayer, while debasing the spiritual values of a people, nevertheless directly elevated their economic, social, and ethical mores.
(995.3) 91:1.4 Prayer is only monologuous in the most primitive type of mind. It early becomes a dialogue and rapidly expands to the level of group worship. Prayer signifies that the premagical incantations of primitive religion have evolved to that level where the human mind recognizes the reality of beneficent powers or beings who are able to enhance social values and to augment moral ideals, and further, that these influences are superhuman and distinct from the ego of the self-conscious human and his fellow mortals. True prayer does not, therefore, appear until the agency of religious ministry is visualized as personal.
(995.4) 91:1.5 Prayer is little associated with animism, but such beliefs may exist alongside emerging religious sentiments. Many times, religion and animism have had entirely separate origins.
(995.5) 91:1.6 With those mortals who have not been delivered from the primitive bondage of fear, there is a real danger that all prayer may lead to a morbid sense of sin, unjustified convictions of guilt, real or fancied. But in modern times it is not likely that many will spend sufficient time at prayer to lead to this harmful brooding over their unworthiness or sinfulness. The dangers attendant upon the distortion and perversion of prayer consist in ignorance, superstition, crystallization, devitalization, materialism, and fanaticism.
This whole section is talking about primitive prayer Bonita.
That wasn’t my question. I’m not talking about primitive prayer. I’m talking about the difference between prayer in a primitive mind and an evolved mind. The quote I gave is from Paper 123 when Jesus was 6 years old. Already he was having a dialogue with his Father in heaven which means that his mind was evolved, it had entered the 7th psychic circle. The quote clearly states that monologuous prayer occurs only in primitive minds. Monologuous means one-way conversation with one’s self. Monologuous prayer is primitive prayer by a primitive mind. Jesus did not do that, he had a dialogue and dialogue means a conversation between two persons. The question at hand is the nature of that dialogue, and since it is intimately personal, we will never know. But one thing we do know is that all of us have at least entered the 7th psychic circle and should do what Jesus did at that time, “have a little talk” with our Father in heaven.
There is actually a dialogue that goes on. That dialogue is between the alter ego and us.
Okay. So what happens when the alter ego evolves, as predicted in the UB, to the actual presence of God? Is there still a dialogue?
91:3.7 . . . but the more effective technique for most practical purposes will be to revert to the concept of a near-by alter ego, just as the primitive mind was wont to do, and then to recognize that the idea of this alter ego has evolved from a mere fiction to the truth of God’s indwelling mortal man in the factual presence of the Adjuster so that man can talk face to face, as it were, with a real and genuine and divine alter ego that indwells him and is the very presence and essence of the living God, the Universal Father.
Greetings all: great responses from everyone, and it will take me a little time to collect some UB quotes which I think may enhance my OP (Opening Posts) narration, there are a few which I feel, will present or give a better idea of my thoughts.
However, the idea, in where I would like to focus on in your responses and research is to keep in mind of what a new reader might think when reading the Urantia Book, as it might relate to themselves, on Urantia. The main thing to avoid would be a thought that everything occurs on a Mansion World and how it may relate to their current life, and being able to identify from within themselves how the mind can be disseminated from the whole.
Thanks again, will follow up soon, got to pay some bills online first.
There is actually a dialogue that goes on. That dialogue is between the alter ego and us.
Okay. So what happens when the alter ego evolves, as predicted in the UB, to the actual presence of God? Is there still a dialogue?
91:3.7 . . . but the more effective technique for most practical purposes will be to revert to the concept of a near-by alter ego, just as the primitive mind was wont to do, and then to recognize that the idea of this alter ego has evolved from a mere fiction to the truth of God’s indwelling mortal man in the factual presence of the Adjuster so that man can talk face to face, as it were, with a real and genuine and divine alter ego that indwells him and is the very presence and essence of the living God, the Universal Father.
We won’t hear the adjusters voice until we are 1st circlers. But even when we fuse we will always have a alter-ego. There is nothing wrong with an alter-ego. The authors don’t mean ego in the sense of egotism. They mean it in the general sense of another self. A higher self.
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