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But I submit it takes security in the material realm to create the interest, time, and energy for exploration of the intangibles of life, ideals, values, and faith.
Maybe so, but so does tribulation. If we are to have wisdom (that which philosophy seeks), then we also have to have problems to solve, adversity to bear, disappointments to overcome. Leisure and comfort alone won’t accomplish this.
48:7.14 The greatest affliction of the cosmos is never to have been afflicted. Mortals only learn wisdom by experiencing tribulation.
But I submit it takes security in the material realm to create the interest, time, and energy for exploration of the intangibles of life, ideals, values, and faith.
Maybe so, but so does tribulation. If we are to have wisdom (that which philosophy seeks), then we also have to have problems to solve, adversity to bear, disappointments to overcome. Leisure and comfort alone won’t accomplish this.
Yes, agreed, balance in all things! Too much leisure, too little challenge, not good.
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Richard E Warren
Yes, agreed, balance in all things! Too much leisure, too little challenge, not good.
What’s nice about leisure and comfort though is that the challenges don’t usually come from a lack of material sustenance, but from a lack of intellectual and spiritual sustenance. I think that as we progress, we should get to the point where we determine our own challenges rather than have them thrust upon us (not that nature won’t do that at times). Self-mastery, self-discipline, self-governance all have to do with maturity. And I think a mature person would look for new ideas, new challenges to overcome . . . like the one mentioned here:
196:3.34 The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man’s greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness — contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.
Hi Rick,
The idea that religion is the inspiration for philosophy seems like a key insight. After all, religion asserts that God creates the material universe, which begs the philosophical-metaphysical question of how spirit reality is related to material reality. If super-philosophy is a function of morontia mota, as some of us suppose, then this level of thought is attainable to some degree by human philosophy.
“The lower planes of morontia mota join directly with the higher levels of human philosophy.” (48:7.1)
The higher planes of mortal philosophy attained by the spiritualizing intellect are equivalent to the lower planes of morontia mota realized by the eternalizing intellect of the morontia soul. Intellectual self-consciousness and morontia soul-consciousness overlap in personal experience. There is a statement of human philosophy which helps us to differentiate between these equivalent levels:
“Inherent capacities cannot be exceeded; a pint can never hold a quart. The spirit concept cannot be mechanically forced into the material memory mold.” (48:7.5)
The spirit concept cannot be recognized or apprehended by the material intellect, which arises from the coordinate functioning of the adjutant mind-spirits. The adjutant mind has for its “substance knowledge-reason” and can form a concept of God, but this is a dead material idea, a mere theory. The morontia soul has for its “essence faith-insight” and can realize a spirit concept of the living presence of God. It would seem that, in a certain sense, faith is the self-conscious intellect’s subjective awareness of the soul’s morontia insight into the objective spirit presence of the divine Adjuster.
This experiential overlap and interpenetration of philosophy and super-philosophy raises questions about the possibility of realizing certain phases of soul-consciousness, while still in the mortal estate. What do we experience, besides faith, which might be direct manifestations of soul-consciousness within our self-conscious awareness?
What’s nice about leisure and comfort though is that the challenges don’t usually come from a lack of material sustenance, but from a lack of intellectual and spiritual sustenance. I think that as we progress, we should get to the point where we determine our own challenges rather than have them thrust upon us (not that nature won’t do that at times). Self-mastery, self-discipline, self-governance all have to do with maturity. And I think a mature person would look for new ideas, new challenges to overcome…
Exactly, or put another way: A relentless search for the truths of being.
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Richard E Warren
What do we experience, besides faith, which might be direct manifestations of soul-consciousness within our self-conscious awareness?
34:6:13 The consciousness of the spirit domination of a human life is presently attended by an increasing exhibition of the characteristics of the Spirit in the life reactions of such a spirit-led mortal, “for the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.” Such spirit-guided and divinely illuminated mortals, while they yet tread the lowly paths of toil and in human faithfulness perform the duties of their earthly assignments, have already begun to discern the lights of eternal life as they glimmer on the faraway shores of another world; already have they begun to comprehend the reality of that inspiring and comforting truth, “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And throughout every trial and in the presence of every hardship, spirit-born souls are sustained by that hope which transcends all fear because the love of God is shed abroad in all hearts by the presence of the divine Spirit.Hi Rick, The idea that religion is the inspiration for philosophy seems like a key insight. After all, religion asserts that God creates the material universe, which begs the philosophical-metaphysical question of how spirit reality is related to material reality. If super-philosophy is a function of morontia mota, as some of us suppose, then this level of thought is attainable to some degree by human philosophy.
“The lower planes of morontia mota join directly with the higher levels of human philosophy.” (48:7.1) The higher planes of mortal philosophy attained by the spiritualizing intellect are equivalent to the lower planes of morontia mota realized by the eternalizing intellect of the morontia soul. Intellectual self-consciousness and morontia soul-consciousness overlap in personal experience. There is a statement of human philosophy which helps us to differentiate between these equivalent levels:
“Inherent capacities cannot be exceeded; a pint can never hold a quart. The spirit concept cannot be mechanically forced into the material memory mold.” (48:7.5) The spirit concept cannot be recognized or apprehended by the material intellect, which arises from the coordinate functioning of the adjutant mind-spirits. The adjutant mind has for its “substance knowledge-reason” and can form a concept of God, but this is a dead material idea, a mere theory. The morontia soul has for its “essence faith-insight” and can realize a spirit concept of the living presence of God. It would seem that, in a certain sense, faith is the self-conscious intellect’s subjective awareness of the soul’s morontia insight into the objective spirit presence of the divine Adjuster. This experiential overlap and interpenetration of philosophy and super-philosophy raises questions about the possibility of realizing certain phases of soul-consciousness, while still in the mortal estate. What do we experience, besides faith, which might be direct manifestations of soul-consciousness within our self-conscious awareness?
Really appreciate the quality of the thinking you have all shown.
Does Mara’s quote answer your question adequately, George?
Richard E Warren
What do we experience, besides faith. . . .
140:1:4 “But for you, my children, and for all others who would follow you into this kingdom, there is set a severe test. Faith alone will pass you through its portals, but you must bring forth the fruits of my Father’s spirit if you would continue to ascend in the progressive life of the divine fellowship. Verily, verily, I say to you, not every one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but rather he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”.We experience spiritual assurance of our status in the our Father’s family as ascending sons of God in the attainment of the eternal life of progress in his divine kingdom..142:5:2 “As to my message and the teaching of my disciples, you should judge them by their fruits. If we proclaim to you the truths of the spirit, thespirit will witness in your hearts that our message is genuine. Concerning the kingdom and your assurance of acceptance by the heavenly Father, let me ask what father among you who is a worthy and kindhearted father would keep his son in anxiety or suspense regarding his status in the family or his place of security in the affections of his father’s heart? Do you earth fathers take pleasure in torturing your children with uncertainty about their place of abiding love in your human hearts? Neither does your Father in heaven leave his faith children of the spirit in doubtful uncertainty as to their position in the kingdom. If you receive God as your Father, then indeed and in truth are you the sons of God. And if you are sons, then are you secure in the position and standing of all that concerns eternal and divine sonship. If you believe my words, you thereby believe in Him who sent me, and by thus believing in the Father, you have made your status in heavenly citizenship sure. If you do the will of the Father in heaven, you shall never fail in the attainment of the eternal life of progress in the divine kingdom.”Hi Rick, The idea that religion is the inspiration for philosophy seems like a key insight. After all, religion asserts that God creates the material universe, which begs the philosophical-metaphysical question of how spirit reality is related to material reality. If super-philosophy is a function of morontia mota, as some of us suppose, then this level of thought is attainable to some degree by human philosophy.
I think so, if by no other way, then by revelation. It elevated my thinking, and helped set a standard for what is useful and useless thought. Not sure that constitutes reaching the super or cosmic philosophic level, maybe merely sanity :)
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Richard E Warren
The soul of man is a reality experience of which he is not often conscious, but consciousness of the soul by the material mind increases with soul growth and circle progress. Consciousness of the soul is supermaterial, yet subspiritual; therefore, it is actually a low level of morontia consciousness.
Soul consciousness leads to a growing realizaiton of one’s relationship with the Supreme Being. It is the beginning of power-personality synthesis of self-realization on a cosmic level. The recognition that one cannot take so much without giving in return begins to have new meaning as the personality discovers and recognizes its cosmic citizenship and obligations.
Soul consciousness is experienced as a relationship with Deity. The Spirit of Truth resides in the soul, along with the Holy Spirit. The proof of fellowship with the Spirit of Truth is an experience of enhanced fellowship with Michael, who is the revealer of the indwelling presence of God. Soul consciousness is the assurance of the presence of God within one’s own mind. It is inconcussible truth which brings tremendous peace, as well as joy of living.
5:2.5 As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a new phase of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other supermaterial activities, of the Mystery Monitors.
There are so many relevant and insightful responses to “What besides faith is a spiritual experience” that I hardly know which one to focus on. Spiritual fruits, circle conquest, spiritual assurance, divine fellowship… If there was ever any doubt about the supreme value of philosophy to personal religious experience, these responses should completely dispel every last one of them.
In paper 100 we are told that spiritual development depends on maintenance of a living spiritual connection with true spiritual forces.
Didn’t say persons, it said forces.
I like to watch science shows. It was God and the universe last night.
hawking and other physicists cannot get away from trying to uncover Gods handiwork in creation using only physics and because they can’t make physics out of it they get into “there can’t be a god mode.” So everything must have come from nothing.
someday one on them will ask “what does it all mean? And what value does it all have?” for more perspective?
what does it take to break down the egos of such brilliant minds? Aren’t they probing true spiritual forces?
One would think that just a little philosophy could usher in a little value that could go a long way to Enlightenment.
In paper 100 we are told that spiritual development depends on maintenance of a living spiritual connection with true spiritual forces. Didn’t say persons, it said forces.
Hi Gene – just thought I’d add more to your comments with several references.
5:1:12 The great God makes direct contact with mortal man and gives a part of his infinite and eternal and incomprehensible self to live and dwell within him. God has embarked upon the eternal adventure with man. If you yield to the leadings of the spiritual forces in you and around you, you cannot fail to attain the high destiny established by a loving God as the universe goal of his ascendant creatures from the evolutionary worlds of space..0:12:13 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness..34:6:9 In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps..I do think the actuality of spiritual forces originate in persons – are created by persons – the Universal Father, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit. The revelators tell us the spiritual forces of the universe are under the overcontrol of one’s TA fragment of God in the human mind dominated by human will that craves to know God..111:2:10 The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation — the Mystery Monitor. And thus does the material and mortal reality of the self transcend the temporal limitations of the physical-life machine and attain a new expression and a new identification in the evolving vehicle for selfhood continuity, the morontia and immortal soul.
This experiential overlap and interpenetration of philosophy and super-philosophy raises questions about the possibility of realizing certain phases of soul-consciousness, while still in the mortal estate. What do we experience, besides faith, which might be direct manifestations of soul-consciousness within our self-conscious awareness?
There are so many relevant and insightful responses to “What besides faith is a spiritual experience” that I hardly know which one to focus on. Spiritual fruits, circle conquest, spiritual assurance, divine fellowship… If there was ever any doubt about the supreme value of philosophy to personal religious experience, these responses should completely dispel every last one of them.
George, I’m attempting to get a handle on where exactly you are going with your presentations, and where it looks like you are asking if there are other ways in which we may understand being God-conscious. Where philosophy, to me, can simply be a personal idea relative to the relationship between personal spiritual reality verses material reality as we live life, through various aspects of cause and effect or religious experience. If so, then I might present my own experiences regarding attaining a form of God-consciousness or being aware that God exists using the intervention of spiritual cause and effect.
As one goes through life’s vicissitudes there comes a time where one thinks or has an idea which does not always follow along the lines of acquired personal logic as one knows or has experienced it. Then when one progresses through life and finds out that these ideas become actual spiritual experiences, they tend to make sense, but cannot be validated through reality, as we then understand them and we, or I then must assume that these experiences which seem to have come true must be from an alternate spiritual realm, or from the fact that one has become God-conscious. Nevertheless, when one has these type of experiences, one tends to think that they are not real and thereby attempts to test this philosophy by trial and error. I have ventured to prove this to myself through testing spirit reality versus material reality and have found that as long as I did not present a test which would adversely cause an effect which was detrimental to the safety of others, they always tended to come true. So much to the point that I have stopped wishing or praying for certain trivial things because I feared interfering with my personal fate, as it should turn out. As I practiced this restraint I found that my philosophic understanding of things became more automatic in nature, in that as I progressed through life having found that my personal life’s social actions or thoughts were duplicated through confirming effects which now seem to occur on a daily basis. Therefore, I must surmise that these effects are do to spiritual cause and thereby making me think that I have become God-conscious. This in itself is a personal validation and would be difficult to present as a narrative of religious experience.
…hawking and other physicists cannot get away from trying to uncover Gods handiwork in creation using only physics and because they can’t make physics out of it they get into “there can’t be a god mode.” So everything must have come from nothing.
someday one on them will ask “what does it all mean? And what value does it all have?” for more perspective?
what does it take to break down the egos of such brilliant minds? Aren’t they probing true spiritual forces?
One would think that just a little philosophy could usher in a little value that could go a long way to Enlightenment.
If only those ‘brilliant minds’ better understood, were more amenable to, the necessity of balance between science/philosophy/religion. We can’t really blame Hawkings. Secular education sometimes leads to atheism. It grows out of spiritless, uninspired, dead logic seems like.
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Richard E Warren
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