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nelsong wrote: dead vault of space as a potential suggests one of the absolutes ?
It seems to me, although I haven’t thoroughly researched it yet, that those dead vaults of space potential emerge from the Unqualified Absolute.
56:1.1 As the cosmic source, Paradise functions prior to space and before time; hence would its derivations seem to be orphaned in time and space did they not emerge through the Unqualified Absolute, their ultimate repository in space and their revealer and regulator in time.
I wonder if the ‘associated points of space’ has something to do with the Unqualified Absolute. I am assuming that TUB uses Euclid’s definition of ‘point’, that which has no parts.
I think that the quote about associated points of space is a description of how humans view space, not necessarily what space actually is.
This next quote sheds a little more light on the relationship between space and the Unqualified Absolute. Space is not the presence of the Unqualified Absolute, it is a bestowal of Paradise. Whatever that means, since space doesn’t actually come in contact with Paradise. (11:7.1) As I understand it, a bestowal is a gift which would be an actuation or enventuation, rather than a creation..
11:7.4 Space is neither a subabsolute condition within, nor the presence of, the Unqualified Absolute, neither is it a function of the Ultimate. It is a bestowal of Paradise, and the space of the grand universe and that of all outer regions is believed to be actually pervaded by the ancestral space potency of the Unqualified Absolute. From near approach to peripheral Paradise, this pervaded space extends horizontally outward through the fourth space level and beyond the periphery of the master universe, but how far beyond we do not know.
Apparently space is filled by the ancestral space potency derived from the Unqualified Absolute and is called Absoluta (42:2.6). It is the primordial pre-reality source of all that fills space, but it isn’t actually space itself. Space is described as a womb (11:5.9; 27:7.4)), whatever that is, I do not know.
11:8.8 Space potency is not subject to the interactions of any form of gravitation. This primal endowment of Paradise is not an actual level of reality, but it is ancestral to all relative functional nonspirit realities – all manifestations of force-energy and the organization of power and matter. Space potency is a term difficult to define. It does not mean that which is ancestral to space; its meaning should convey the idea of the potencies and potentials existent within space. It may be roughly conceived to include all those absolute influences and potentials which emanate from Paradise and constitute the space presence of the Unqualified Absolute.
Seems to me that they describe space similar to the womb as you suggest – something that facilitates or carries or otherwise allows to propagate all of those manifestations of force-energy etc – no clear explanation and this likely could be because we need to discover this for ourselves – more along the line of the unearned information angle. Or maybe the revealators really do not know either.
All good ideas Nelson. I have this image of the wombs, reservoirs, or dead vaults of space, being collapsed empty balloons which suddenly became filled with “stuff”and expand proportionately. There are limits to space and there are levels of space, so the image of a vault, reservoir or womb makes some kind of sense. But what causes the limit? Space is not infinite apparently, so what happens when you reach the limits of space?
12:5.2 Space is not infinite, even though it takes origin from Paradise; not absolute, for it is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute. We do not know the absolute limits of space, but we do know that the absolute of time is eternity.
56:1.1 As the cosmic source, Paradise functions prior to space and before time; hence would its derivations seem to be orphaned in time and space did they not emerge through the Unqualified Absolute, their ultimate repository in space and their revealer and regulator in time.
Bonita brought into the conversation the Quote listed above, but where else is a “regulator in time” mentioned in the Urantia Book, in that if one assumes a center point, or a pivot point, and as one moves another point along a line, it would indicate that time is slower the farther one sets that other point into space; then how does this relate to time, as is also mentioned that our time is slower then that of Paradise time, yet still is represented as being in sync?
Could this be represented on Urantia as a Metronome, where there is a pendulum and a fulcrum represented?
Etymology: The word metronome first appeared in English c. 1815 and is Greek in origin: metron “measure” and nomos “regulating, law.”
We do not know the absolute limits of space, but we do know that the absolute of time is eternity.
Another suggested disconnect between time and space – even as we are told they are inseparable.
As we cannot even begin to imagine infinity, it appears to be the same sort of mental exercise in futility to imagine what lack of space (beyond the limits of space) could be.
MidiChlorian wrote: . . . as is also mentioned that our time is slower then that of Paradise timeHUH? Paradise doesn’t have any time. Our time is about 30 times faster than Uversa time and Uversa is closer to Paradise than we are.0:1.13 On Paradise, time and space are nonexistent . . .15:7.2 Time is standardized on the headquarters of the superuniverses. The standard day of the superuniverse of Orvonton is equal to almost thirty days of Urantia time, and the Orvonton year equals one hundred standard days. This Uversa year is standard in the seventh superuniverse, and it is twenty-two minutes short of three thousand days of Urantia time, about eight and one fifth of your years.
HUH? Paradise doesn’t have any time. Our time is about 30 times faster than Uversa time and Uversa is closer to Paradise than we are.
0:1.13 On Paradise, time and space are nonexistent . . .
15:7.2 Time is standardized on the headquarters of the superuniverses. The standard day of the superuniverse of Orvonton is equal to almost thirty days of Urantia time, and the Orvonton year equals one hundred standard days. This Uversa year is standard in the seventh superuniverse, and it is twenty-two minutes short of three thousand days of Urantia time, about eight and one fifth of your years.
Bonita, were you absent that day in school where they taught ratio’s?
Where a “standard day” “of Orvonton is equal to almost thirty days of Urantia time,” where the ratio in time is 1:30. It takes 30 times longer to represent one day of Orvonton. Therefore, as thirty of our days pass, only one day has passed on Orvonton, so in relation to time, they are thirty times faster than we are.
Or, I attempted to represent with the “metronome” in my previous post, (you are families with the metronome, or did you not have one when you studied music, violin, wasn’t it?) that when the counter weight is moved farther away from the pivot point, the rhythm or the ticking becomes slower because it must travel farther, but as one moves closer to the pivot point the rhythm is the same in that at that point it is a visual deception of motion. So, the further we are in space, revolving around the center, or pivot point, time appears to pass slower, but the angle by which it has traveled is the same.
The same may be indicated in the following quotes:
(303.1) 27:6.3 At the southern extremity of the vast Paradise domain the masters of philosophy conduct elaborate courses in the seventy functional divisions of wisdom. Here they discourse upon the plans and purposes of Infinity and seek to co-ordinate the experiences, and to compose the knowledge, of all who have access to their wisdom. They have developed a highly specialized attitude toward various universe problems, but their final conclusions are always in uniform agreement.
(303.2) 27:6.4 These Paradise philosophers teach by every possible method of instruction, including the higher graph technique of Havona and certain Paradise methods of communicating information. All of these higher techniques of imparting knowledge and conveying ideas are utterly beyond the comprehension capacity of even the most highly developed human mind. One hour’s instruction on Paradise would be the equivalent of ten thousand years of the word-memory methods of Urantia. You cannot grasp such communication techniques, and there is simply nothing in mortal experience with which they may be compared, nothing to which they can be likened.
(303.3) 27:6.5 The masters of philosophy take supreme pleasure in imparting their interpretation of the universe of universes to those beings who have ascended from the worlds of space. And while philosophy can never be as settled in its conclusions as the facts of knowledge and the truths of experience, yet, when you have listened to these primary supernaphim discourse upon the unsolved problems of eternity and the performances of the Absolutes, you will feel a certain and lasting satisfaction concerning these unmastered questions.
(303.4) 27:6.6 These intellectual pursuits of Paradise are not broadcast; the philosophy of perfection is available only to those who are personally present. The encircling creations know of these teachings only from those who have passed through this experience, and who have subsequently carried this wisdom out to the universes of space.
In addition to the aforementioned ratio, one can go back to “pre-echo” and to understand the relationship of time within space, or the universe, one can evaluate its relationship through music, specifically “time signature”, where if one goes through the Wiki article on “time signature” they have many video representations throughout the article which will assimilate similar experiences, as may be found in space in relation to time.
Bonita, were you absent that day in school where they taught ratio’s?
No, I wasn’t. I actually was in an accelerated math program. If we wake up and go to sleep thirty times before the folks on Uversa even think of going to bed, then our time is going by faster than their time. (And yes, I know Uversa folks don’t really go to bed.) If two people were born at the exact same time, person A on Uversa and person B on Earth, at the time the B-Earth child turned 8.2 years old, the A-Uversa child would only be 1 year old. The Earth child’s time went faster than the Uversa child’s time. Earth time goes by faster than Uversa time and Uversa is closer to Paradise than Earth and it’s time period is long (relative to us) . Paradise takes so long that time ceases to exist, it’s so long they actually call it eternity.
We do not know the absolute limits of space, but we do know that the absolute of time is eternity. Another suggested disconnect between time and space – even as we are told they are inseparable.
So it seems but consider this model of space and time. Think of space a box capable of expanding and contracting. It has limits, it is not a boundless cube. Then imagine time as a spherical shell within the box of space. It expands and contracts with the box and maintains a touching relationship with the box at six points where the sphere touches the sides of the box. The spherical shell can rotate as it expands and contracts with the box of space and this can extend from the eternal past to the eternal future. So, I see no real disconnect with how TUB presents these two concepts. Space can be sub absolute because it not a boundless cube and simultaneously circular time can rotate from forever to forever.
Interesting model but one is a circle the other a box – two different entities that we relate to differently, one with perception, the other with sensitivity.
We have no hope as mortals to transcend either but the UB suggests that in our ascent we transcend time and vanquish space, two different and separate accomplishments – and we don’t transcend space – what does it mean to vanquish space – how do you suppose that happens?.
Some critters can transcend time separate from space – 7 Master Spirits if memory serves??.
Two phenomena that are linked most of the time but not always.
If they were the UB would agree with Einstein’s term: timespace.
One hour’s instruction on Paradise would be the equivalent of ten thousand years of the word-memory methods of Urantia.
Uversa is closer to Paradise than Earth and it’s time period is long (relative to us) . Paradise takes so long that time ceases to exist, it’s so long they actually call it eternity.
eternal – 4. Metaphysics. existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
We assume that God is eternal and not subject to change, but we are talking about time, in relation to different points in space, and in the UB paradise is considered as the center point or a fixed revolution point but this does not mean that paradise does not have a revolution only that its axial point is fixed.
“In relativity, proper time is the elapsed time between two events as measured by a clock that passes through both events. The proper time depends not only on the events but also on the motion of the clock between the events. An accelerated clock will measure a smaller elapsed time between two events than that measured by a non-accelerated (inertial) clock between the same two events. The twin paradox is an example of this effect.”
“In physics, the twin paradox is a thought experiment in special relativity involving identical twins, one of whom makes a journey into space in a high-speed rocket and returns home to find that the twin who remained on Earth has aged more. This result appears puzzling because each twin sees the other twin as moving, and so, according to an incorrect naive application of time dilation and the principle of relativity, each should paradoxically find the other to have aged more slowly. However, this scenario can be resolved within the standard framework of special relativity: the travelling twin’s trajectory involves two different inertial frames, one for the outbound journey and one for the inbound journey, and so there is no symmetry between the spacetime paths of the two twins. Therefore the twin paradox is not a paradox in the sense of a logical contradiction.”
“In the theory of relativity, time dilation is an actual difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from gravitational masses.
An accurate clock at rest with respect to one observer may be measured to tick at a different rate when compared to a second observer’s own equally accurate clocks. This effect arises neither from technical aspects of the clocks nor from the fact that signals need time to propagate, but from the nature of spacetime itself.
Overview – Clocks on the Space Shuttle run slightly slower than reference clocks on Earth, while clocks on GPS and Galileo satellites run slightly faster. Such time dilation has been repeatedly demonstrated (see experimental confirmation below), for instance by small disparities in atomic clocks on Earth and in space, even though both clocks work perfectly (it is not a mechanical malfunction). The laws of nature are such that time itself (i.e. spacetime) will bend due to differences in either gravity or velocity – each of which affects time in different ways. “
If one hour of instruction on paradise is the same as ten thousand hours on Urantia, from the viewpoint of paradise, Urantia is slower, in that it takes 10,000 hours to accomplish 1 hour of instruction. Assuming that the angle of rotation is the same we can actually determine the distance that Urantia is from paradise using the 1:10,000 ratio, where if on a pie chart you assume as specific angular degree to represent a fixed distance and then project this angle as a slice of pie or two lines that are, one fixed and the other 10,000 times that angular distance units, you can determine where we are in relation to paradise.
However, if paradise is eternal, and absent of time, and does not change, it could be assumed that it contains past, present and future, compressed into a very small space, where all patterns (material space dimensions) are contained, including the temporal dimensions (time), it would be inclusive of all, or omniscience or Omni- factors as the universe of universes. The problem is that it will take us longer to absorb the instruction because we are slower and have a specific element or duration of time because for us, it hasn’t happened yet, because of the distance we are located in the outer fringes of space. We may be travelling in space much faster then the fixed rotation of paradise, but we need to understand that the revelation is being presented in a different context, from our perspective, and we sometimes need to change our viewpoint to that of paradise.
Interesting model but one is a circle the other a box – two different entities that we relate to differently, one with perception, the other with sensitivity.
A small correction in what I said in my model. One could use as a model a square and circle for space and time or, in a higher dimension, a cube and a sphere. And According to TUB, time is perceived by analysis and space by synthesis.
Two phenomena that are linked most of the time but not always. If they were the UB would agree with Einstein’s term: timespace.
I believe that TUB is not in agreement with Einstein (he used the term ‘spacetime’ and TUB uses’ timespace’) is that:
1. Einstein used Absolute space, the unbounded cubic of the cartesian coordinate system. Space in TUB is sub absolute.
2. Einstein used linear time whereas TUB uses time as circular simultaneity. His time was an arrow that could stretch.
I think this makes a tremendous difference.
I think that the quote about associated points of space is a description of how humans view space, not necessarily what space actually is.
I simply cannot let this quote in TUB go interpreted in this way. I certainly never viewed space as a system of associated points nor do I know of of any philosophic treatise by Kant, Newton or Einstein to view space this way.
I think that TUB asks us to question exactly how points can have an association. They can either be alike or one and the same, or exhibit some close relation. The word ‘system’ also has implications and suggests that the points coordinate activity.
A ‘point’, that which has no parts cannot be a thing. A point is a nothing. A system of associated nothing necessarily gives new meaning to the notion of ‘nothing’. A ‘thing’ is motion and requires time and space. That which is void of time and space has no parts (motion) and cannot otherwise be defined, yet it can associate. It can act, apparently. It must be the focus of space yet have no position in space. Points in an absolute space are indeed the geographic center of infinity, but what are points in sub absolute space? Are points in sub absolute space representative of the unity of points, one point?
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