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  • #8942
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    nelsong
    Participant

    Haven’t talked about this for quite a while but reading through paper 105:7 it dawned on me that the reason that we cannot really describe space as anything more than the intervening distance between two objects is that it is a transcendental reality. We relate to it from a flatlander perspective with the possible exception that Einstein proved that at least some of it exists on the finite level because it can be bent or warped by physical gravity. Otherwise we just cannot relate to it as something other than nothing.

    #8946
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    emanny
    Blocked

    Hi nelsong.

    Einstein had a theory but he never proved any of it.  Einstrins’s space was as absolute as Newton’s space, except that he said it could be warped.  TUB tells us flatly that space is not absolute, it is not a boundless cube.  Space moves.  Matter contains space and as matter moves in space it takes the space within it along as a property of the matter. None of this was known to science in 1914.  TUB also states that space is unresponsive to gravity.  I Einstein were to have been correct in that mass warps space, then mass (matter) would warp itself.  In such a feedback loop, the first signs of matter would warp itself into an infinite density, a singularity.  It would be a universe without creation.  This is because space and time cannot exist in such an infinite density.  The universe would be literally Absolutum, the substance of Paradise.  Only the Trinity could exist.  It would be Paradise minus all creation.  Seems van impossibility to me.  The Creator does not exist without his creation.

    According to TUB, space is a system of associated points.  Points are indeed no-thing.  A thing, a something, is a creation.  Creation is a projection from that which is not a thing.  We must also remember that space and time are inseparable in finite existence.  The time-space creations are shadowy projections of energy-substance.

    There is nothing linear or flat in finite creation.  It is the Infinite that is flat, rectilinear timeless and spaceless.  We exist in the higher dimensions of hyperbolic space and circular time.  These are projections from the lower dimensions, literally the spirit planes, the boundless cubic of the Holy Trinity.  We are created in His image.

    We can relate to space time because we are space time creations.

    #8949
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    nelsong
    Participant

    Thanks emanny,

    I don’t think Einstein had a revealed concept of absolute but his theory still stands in the scientific community as far as I know.

    From what I understand TUB tells us that space eventuates into existence as one of the Transcendentals. It makes no mention of time as a Transcendental partner entity to space. It is an Ultimate thing.

    If Paradise is the pattern for all creation, does space have Paradise pattern too? That would make it some-thing – that would be controlled by Paradise gravity.

    I know I’m missing the big picture.

     

    #8954
    Richard E Warren
    Richard E Warren
    Participant

    Apparently there is a ‘Paradise pattern’ nelsong,

    Paper 104 – Growth of the Trinity Concept

    … of the Father-Son, whose union first activated the Paradise pattern in the appearance of Havona concomitant with the birth of the …

    Paper 115 – The Supreme Being

    … of the personal Son with the immutable energies of the Paradise pattern, and as the presence of the Universal Absolute unifies Deity …

    Paper 116 – The Almighty Supreme

    … are the children of the mind God, who is the activator of Paradise pattern. The intelligence of the power directors is unremittingly …

    Paper 9 – Relation of the Infinite Spirit to the Universe

    … Son’s spiritual nature, and capable of activating the Paradise pattern, a being provisionally subordinate in sovereignty but in many …

    Paper 130 – On the Way to Rome

    … of finite creation are the time-space repercussions of the Paradise Pattern and the Universal Mind of the eternal God. Causation in the …

    ***

     

    Richard E Warren

    #8958
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    emanny
    Blocked

    Hi nelsong,

    You are correct that Einstein’s theories still stand in the mainstream scientific community.  My question is, why?  Consider that the whole of math in tensor calculus and the math of QED are an offshoot of the calculus of Newton and Leibniz.  Now consider that the entirety of this math is graphed in a background of an unmoving, unbounded and absolute space of what we call the cartesian coordinate system.  Time is only implied as we graph on this absolute background.  Space-time was then joined by Einstein and this was consistent with what TUB says the time and space are inseparable.  However, Einstein kept time linear even as he made it able to dilate.

    I shake my head at the failure of mainstream science to completely ignore their own findings that space is expanding.  If your cartesian graph is moving in time, your math becomes invalid. The concept of position, velocity and acceleration gets thrown out the window, at least as a theory.

    We must realize that the cartesian graph is rigid, absolute and boundless.  TUB has blown all of that out of the water.  I have concluded that creation, motion, is not calculable.  Creation is only measurable, and, therefore,  computable to a rough approximation.  Motion is logarithmic and I have discovered that the logarithmic functions have been mistreated and flatly fudged by the early calculators.  I have evidence of this.  The basic logarithmic function:

    y=e^x is its own derivative.  This means that it is self derived and existential.  This tells me that motion is existential, which is confirmed by TUB which tells of an existential Central Universe.  Why would a beginning to motion ever be entertained (Big Bang)?

    The other two equations of motion are y=natural logarithm x ( the inverse  of y=e^x) and y=1/x, the inverse function.  These function govern motion and all happen to be self derived.  They have no valid integral or derivative, for those familiar with the calculus terms.

    We cannot calculate God’s creation.  God is not an equation and neither is what He creates.

    118:3.1   Only by ubiquity could Deity unify time-space manifestations to the finite conception, for time is a succession of instants while space is a system of associated points. You do, after all, perceive time by analysis and space by synthesis. You co-ordinate and associate these two dissimilar conceptions by the integrating insight of personality. Of all the animal world only man possesses this time-space perceptibility. To an animal, motion has a meaning, but motion exhibits value only to a creature of personality status.

     

    11:9.7   Paradise is the universal headquarters of all personality activities and the source-center of all force-space and energy manifestations. Everything which has been, now is, or is yet to be, has come, now comes, or will come forth from this central abiding place of the eternal Gods. Paradise is the center of all creation, the source of all energies, and the place of primal origin of all personalities.

     

    189:1.3   Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?

     

    I will place emphasis on the words, reflection, moving and fleeting.  It is impossible to pin down motion to a simple change in linear position.  What meaning does position have in a fleeting shadow?  Not even still Paradise has a position in space.  Paradise is the focus of space.

    #8959
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    nelsong wrote:  If Paradise is the pattern for all creation, does space have Paradise pattern too?

    Does this quote answer your question?

    0:6.11  Neither space nor pattern are gravity responsive, but there is no relationship between space and pattern; space is neither pattern nor potential pattern. 

    We are told at least 4 times, however, that space is not empty (41:6.1; 42:4.6.; 42:5.16; 130:7.6)  Space contains “gravity-responding energy currents, power circuits, and ultimatonic activities, as well as organizing electronic energies.” (42:4.6)

    nelsong wrote: . . . .the reason that we cannot really describe space as anything more than the intervening distance between two objects is that it is a transcendental reality.

    I don’t recall reading that space is a transcendental reality.  Would you mind providing the quote?

    #8961
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    nelsong
    Participant

    Hey Bonita,

    I can’t seem to copy and paste so here is the reference: (1160.3) 105:7.5

    #8962
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant
    nelsong wrote:  I can’t seem to copy and paste so here is the reference: (1160.3) 105:7.5

    Here’s the quote for the benefit of discussion:

    105:7.4 Among those realities which are associated with the transcendental level are the following: 105:7.5 1. The Deity presence of the Ultimate. 105:7.6 2. The concept of the master universe. 105:7.7 3. The Architects of the Master Universe. 105:7.8 4. The two orders of Paradise force organizers. 105:7.9 5. Certain modifications in space potency. 105:7.10 6. Certain values of spirit. 105:7.11 7. Certain meanings of mind. 105:7.12 8. Absonite qualities and realities. 105:7.13 9. Omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. 105:7.14 10. Space.

    The quote says that space is a reality  ASSOCIATED WITH the transcendental level.  It does NOT say that space IS a transcendental reality.  (Caps meant for emphasis, not meant as shouting.)

     

    #8963
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    Anonymous
    Inactive

    The entire section is in reference to “transcendentals”  – the “eventuation of ”

    7. Eventuation of Transcendentals

    (1159.6) 105:7.1 Transcendentals are subinfinite and subabsolute but superfinite and supercreatural. Transcendentals eventuate as an integrating level correlating the supervalues of absolutes with the maximum values of finites. From the creature standpoint, that which is transcendental would appear to have eventuated as a consequence of the finite; from the eternity viewpoint, in anticipation of the finite; and there are those who have considered it as a “pre-echo” of the finite.

    (1159.7) 105:7.2 That which is transcendental is not necessarily nondevelopmental, but it is superevolutional in the finite sense; neither is it nonexperiential, but it is superexperience as such is meaningful to creatures. Perhaps the best illustration of such a paradox is the central universe of perfection: It is hardly absolute — only the Paradise Isle is truly absolute in the “materialized” sense. Neither is it a finite evolutionary creation as are the seven superuniverses. Havona is eternal but not changeless in the sense of being a universe of nongrowth. It is inhabited by creatures (Havona natives) who never were actually created, for they are eternally existent. Havona thus illustrates something which is not exactly finite nor yet absolute. Havona further acts as a buffer between absolute Paradise and finite creations, still further illustrating the function of transcendentals. But Havona itself is not a transcendental — it is Havona.

    (1160.1) 105:7.3 As the Supreme is associated with finites, so the Ultimate is identified with transcendentals. But though we thus compare Supreme and Ultimate, they differ by something more than degree; the difference is also a matter of quality. The Ultimate is something more than a super-Supreme projected on the transcendental level. The Ultimate is all of that, but more: The Ultimate is an eventuation of new Deity realities, the qualification of new phases of the theretofore unqualified.

    (1160.2) 105:7.4 Among those realities which are associated with the transcendental level are the following:

    (1160.3) 105:7.5 1. The Deity presence of the Ultimate.
    (1160.4) 105:7.6 2. The concept of the master universe.
    (1160.5) 105:7.7 3. The Architects of the Master Universe.
    (1160.6) 105:7.8 4. The two orders of Paradise force organizers.
    (1160.7) 105:7.9 5. Certain modifications in space potency.
    (1160.8) 105:7.10 6. Certain values of spirit.
    (1160.9) 105:7.11 7. Certain meanings of mind.
    (1160.10) 105:7.12 8. Absonite qualities and realities.
    (1160.11) 105:7.13 9. Omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence.
    (1160.12) 105:7.14 10. Space.

    (1160.13) 105:7.15 The universe in which we now live may be thought of as existing on finite, transcendental, and absolute levels. This is the cosmic stage on which is enacted the endless drama of personality performance and energy metamorphosis.

    (1160.14) 105:7.16 And all of these manifold realities are unified absolutely by the several triunities, functionally by the Architects of the Master Universe, and relatively by the Seven Master Spirits, the subsupreme co-ordinators of the divinity of God the Sevenfold.

    (1160.15) 105:7.17 God the Sevenfold represents the personality and divinity revelation of the Universal Father to creatures of both maximum and submaximum status, but there are other sevenfold relationships of the First Source and Center which do not pertain to the manifestation of the divine spiritual ministry of the God who is spirit.

    (1160.16) 105:7.18 In the eternity of the past the forces of the Absolutes, the spirits of the Deities, and the personalities of the Gods stirred in response to the primordial self-will of self-existent self-will. In this universe age we are all witnessing the stupendous repercussions of the far-flung cosmic panorama of the subabsolute manifestations of the limitless potentials of all these realities. And it is altogether possible that the continued diversification of the original reality of the First Source and Center may proceed onward and outward throughout age upon age, on and on, into the faraway and inconceivable stretches of absolute infinity.

     

     

     

    #8964
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    So, is space eventuated or created?

    #8968
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    Anonymous
    Inactive

    (1159.6) 105:7.1 Transcendentals are subinfinite and subabsolute but superfinite and supercreatural. Transcendentals eventuate as an integrating level correlating the supervalues of absolutes with the maximum values of finites. From the creature standpoint, that which is transcendental would appear to have eventuated as a consequence of the finite; from the eternity viewpoint, in anticipation of the finite; and there are those who have considered it as a “pre-echo” of the finite.

    So, is space eventuated or created?

    One of the clues given in the first paragraph of the section presented above is “pre-echo” which is defined as follows:

    noun
    1. something that has preceded and anticipated something else; precursor
    2. a fault in an audio recording in which a sound that is to come is heard too early: on tape sometimes caused by print-through

    Where one possible cause can be assimilated by “print-through“, defined as:

    noun
    1. the unwanted transfer of a recorded magnetic field pattern from one turn of magnetic tape to the preceding or succeeding turn on a reel, causing distortion

    If one would consider time as an eight track tape of old, where both side can be recorded on and when the tape is cut and twisted 180 degrees and rejoined, by playing and recording at the same time, you would get an infinite loop but as the previous recording is played and then recorded over after playing, depending on the various layers previously recorded and played you may experience a distortion.

    However, as this tread has progressed, is would be conceivable that what is being described is not space but anti-space, where when the original eternity is compressed into an infinite point, its density not much different than a black-hole, however, as matter is compressed it looses motion therefore, what was considered as time become pattern within the dense mass.  At some point this dense mass can no longer be compressed and is converted to its opposite material structure called anti-matter, which requires a stable expansion media, much like an air-conditioner taking heat from compression and passing it through an orifice creating an altered state which is much colder based on the effects of evaporation, through expansion.  Then as has been theorized with black-holes, there is a corresponding white-hole which is formed and the transfer of matter takes on a different mass, whereby creating a new environment which is actually the same but the opposite or anti-environment or anti-space, which takes on new properties, but is still based on the same principles or universal laws, which may be reversed or mirrored as a reflection.  The problem would be time, in that these patterns would be altered but still have specific structure but would need to be harmonized to their original tracks, recorded on their various layers, which may bleed through and cause distortion.

     

     

     

    #8970
    Avatar
    nelsong
    Participant

    So, is space eventuated or created?

    Good question and one could also question the origin of the other nine entities  or qualities revealed in (1160.2) 105:7.4 that are associated with Transcendental as well in order to help with an idea of how to answer???

    There are ultimatons in space but are they the basic structure of space? Don’t seem to be the case imho.

    Also, as I pointed out earlier that Time has no such Transcendental association – that is revealed in this paper anyway.

     

    #8973
    Avatar
    emanny
    Blocked

    Also, as I pointed out earlier that Time has no such Transcendental association – that is revealed in this paper anyway.

    TUB tells us that time and space are inseparable.  Is it wrong to assume that if space is associated with something that time must also come along?  They are like conjoint twins.

    So, is space eventuated or created?

    Would the same question be valid for the Central Universe?  I don’t know.

     

    #8976
    Bonita
    Bonita
    Participant

    Well, there is evidence that the “dead vaults of space” existed as a potential at the time of the appearance of the Conjoint Actor, when they suddenly became filled with matter.

    8:1.4 The God of Action functions and the dead vaults of space are astir. One billion perfect spheres flash into existence. Prior to this hypothetical eternity moment the space-energies inherent in Paradise are existent and potentially operative, but they have no actuality of being; neither can physical gravity be measured except by the reaction of material realities to its incessant pull. There is no material universe at this (assumed) eternally distant moment, but the very instant that one billion worlds materialize, there is in evidence gravity sufficient and adequate to hold them in the everlasting grasp of Paradise.

    #8980
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    nelsong
    Participant

    So Havona exists in the same space as I do ??

    dead vault of space as a potential suggests one of the absolutes ?

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